He covered the hardening of pharaoh's heart Cato. I think you missed it.

(June 21, 2013 at 4:37 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: He covered the hardening of pharaoh's heart Cato. I think you missed it.

It was not covered. The idea was simply dismissed with a very foolish appeal to verb translation. The claim is meaningless in light of the fact that the author specifically states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart on nine seperate occaisions, three times has Pharaoh harden his own heart, and fails to say who's responsible for the hardening in five other instances. To now claim that God simply allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart is a little ridiculous.

(June 21, 2013 at 4:27 pm)cato123 Wrote: Consilius,

You are omitting a very important part of the Exodus account that renders much of what you said irrelevant.

The fact you have not mentioned is that it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart. Why? I think the only reasonable answer is so that God could keep fucking with them, including killing innocent children as you pointed out.

You must have read everything but the explanation of Pharaoh's heart being hardened, or ignored what you read just to have something to complain about, you even cherry pick what is written by Christians, how weak can one actually be.

(June 21, 2013 at 2:41 am)Ryantology Wrote: 1: Under which circumstances, precisely, would you consider it acceptable to carry out the violent mass killing of every infant and child in a city?

If God were still engaging in direct revelation (which He is not, revelation is closed), and He directly commanded it.

Quote: 2: Is it just to kill a person because they live in the same place as a person who committed a sin, if they had no direct or conscious involvement in it?

If God commands it, we know it is just.

Quote: 3: If we are judged guilty, and can be punished for our sins even before we commit them, how is this consistent with the notion of free will being the choice between God and sin?

I reject the notion of free will, but nobody is judged for sins prior to committing them. We all enter this world sinners deserving of death and punishment, anything we receive other than that is purely God’s grace. God withholding His grace is not unjust because grace is freely given and taken away by only God.

Quote: 4: If there is any possible alternative to purposefully killing a person in order to achieve whatever imaginable end may involve doing so, in other words, if you can do what you need to do just as easily regardless of whether or not you kill that person, is it just to kill them anyway?

If God commanded it, yes. We all deserve death, so God giving someone what they deserve cannot be unjust.

There you go, I didn’t pull any punches, I hope you appreciate that.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:33 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: If God commands it, we know it is just.

It all comes down to easy manipulation in these cases, I have discovered. Those who wholeheartedly believe god is a just being are also the same types that corporations prefer to hire because they will not question the horrible ethics of what may be going on in the company. Religious people are easier to mold, because they believe the actions of the authority are always just, no matter how heinous the acts perpetrated by the authority. It is impossible to reason with such individuals, because they are unable to see the evil no matter if bites their hand off. After all, if the hand gets bitten off, it was done by a just authority that knows best. Religious people are in essence nothing more than perfect robots.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:43 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: It all comes down to easy manipulation in these cases, I have discovered. Those who wholeheartedly believe god is a just being are also the same types that corporations prefer to hire because they will not question the horrible ethics of what may be going on in the company. Religious people are easier to mold, because they believe the actions of the authority are always just, no matter how heinous the acts perpetrated by the authority. It is impossible to reason with such individuals, because they are unable to see the evil no matter if bites their hand off. After all, if the hand gets bitten off, it was done by a just authority that knows best. Religious people are in essence nothing more than perfect robots.

Where is your proof that religious people are easier to mold than non-religious people?
You simply do not understand how this works; God is the ultimate standard of justice, that’s an ontological truth. Therefore, it is logically impossible to say anything He does is unjust because that would be appealing to a standard outside of God. It’s obvious that on a whole religious people are simply more logically sophisticated than you are because they understand how ultimate standards function. A corporation is not a standard of justice at all, so I can object to what they do. What’s your ultimate standard of justice?

(June 21, 2013 at 6:14 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Where is your proof that religious people are easier to mold than non-religious people?

The fact that they believe in god proves how malleable they are.

(June 21, 2013 at 6:14 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: God is the ultimate standard of justice, that’s an ontological truth.

Philosophy is a weak science, especially in terms of proving anything in relation to god. Your version of the truth is not a truth at all, so much as it is an opinion.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:13 pm)cato123 Wrote:

(June 21, 2013 at 4:37 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: He covered the hardening of pharaoh's heart Cato. I think you missed it.

It was not covered. The idea was simply dismissed with a very foolish appeal to verb translation. The claim is meaningless in light of the fact that the author specifically states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart on nine seperate occaisions, three times has Pharaoh harden his own heart, and fails to say who's responsible for the hardening in five other instances. To now claim that God simply allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart is a little ridiculous.

I don't see anything wrong with God allowing Pharaoh to harden his heart. He simply allowed YOU to become an atheist (I'm not condemning atheism, just stating how paradoxical it sounds that God would allow people to not believe in him.) He has allowed people to do terrible things around the world. These things bring people together and tear them apart. The Pharaoh had his choice, but he chose wrongly and was punished. When the Pharaoh messed up, God revealed himself to Egypt and a nation was born.
So we have: God uses Moses to harden Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh has his heart hardened, and therefore, his heart is hard.

(June 21, 2013 at 2:41 am)Ryantology Wrote: Under which circumstances, precisely, would you consider it acceptable to carry out the violent mass killing of every infant and child in a city?

Only if your name is Planned Parenthood.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:33 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: If God commands it, we know it is just.

So, let me ask you this: if someone commands you to do something, and you refuse on the grounds that it is an immoral action, and then that person steps out of the way and god is behind him, and god tells you to do the exact same action, in the exact same words, do you continue to refuse? Or do you change your response and do as you're told?