You are, of course, conveniently ignoring the definition of Christian faith that I posted above Esq.

In response to deceptive_illusion:
I feel that a subjective faith is about as far as I can go. There is much about scientific and philosophical evidence for God's existence, but it's an argument I'm not sure I can lay out.
But what this debate has made people forget is that 'faith' is real and at many times the best hope we have. We trust that children will succeed in life and that spouses will remain faithful.
I also consider the reason I have faith not a last ditch effort, but the optimal way of believing in religion in modern times. Relationships fail when evidence of other people's actions is required too often, because it shows a lack of trust. Miracles fail because we ask more questions now and will do everything in our power to disprove them.
But good, in whatever form it comes, prompts gratitude to something, and there are times when the helper may not be a human. Good is simple, it is unchanging, it is personal, it is powerful, and, yes, it is subjective. Maybe we fear the subjective because it's one of the things we will never manipulate, explain, or measure. But it is there, and always will be.
This is all I have to say. It's not inrefutable proof of anything, but I think it's pretty good. Please keep in mind that I don't know there is a God, I simply believe that this is a good reason that there could be.

(June 22, 2013 at 1:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You are, of course, conveniently ignoring the definition of Christian faith that I posted above Esq.

Or I missed it.

So Candace walks into the room, makes one good point, and then spends the rest of the meeting bitching with the rest of the hens.

(June 21, 2013 at 7:27 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Edna: "have you actually got anything to say Mable?"
Mable: "no Edna"
Edna: (drags on her cigarette)
Mable: (adjusts her bosom)

Edna: “Say, Mable, have you ever noticed that certain Chri-stains, when challenged to provide justification for their belief in concepts like “sin” and “sacrificial atonement”, will instead attempt a deflection by creating fantasy characters and having them engage in fictional conversation?”

Mable: “Yes dearie, I have noticed that. Have you seen Candace today?”

(June 21, 2013 at 5:53 pm)Godschild Wrote: Does that include when you sit in a chair.

Of course ! Especially when this chair is too comfortable.

"Faith" apparently has many different interpretations. The same is true for the bible. That doesn't make any of them at all valid. When faith is put into the realm of one's own religion, it will look different when viewed by Muslims, Jainists, Buddhists...you name it. When looked at objectively by those who don't care what the Bible (or any other religious text) says simply because there's no reason to waste their time with it, then all subjective reasoning is omitted, and people can start being rational about the subject.

Put into that light, everyone in some form or another has faith. Even Atheists have faith. That does not make them religious because faith is not inherently divine in origin. There is good faith, and there is bad faith.

Good faith is used when putting trust into something that has not yet occurred, but there is plenty of valid and factual reasoning involved to get someone to that point. Having faith that your dog will come when you call him/her is a great example. Having faith that green men live on Mars, conversely, is not, as there is no proof/evidence to the claim.

Bad faith can also be referred to as blind faith. In the world of religions, all faith in god is blind faith simply because people are putting their trust into something based on someone else's assertion. Said assertion has not been proven. Blind faith is dangerous; the reason for this is that it affects the way a person thinks in a radical way.

Those with blind faith "know" that their assertions are true, when in fact no proof has been shown to substantiate their claims. The end results are not always bad...in fact, much good can come from believing in a deity. But put one little bit of shit into your brownie mix, and you now have shit brownies. Some religious parties refuse to acknowledge any scientific medical discoveries, and so they neglect to take their ill and dying relatives in for emergency care. Such neglect is not their fault. Rather, it is the fault of blind faith - it has affected their mind, and, in some extreme cases, you can't reason logically with them because such arguments are superseded by their god's logic.

Conclusively, asking "what is faith" should only yield one answer. Having many different definitions of the word is erroneous - adding qualifiers to it is also a bad move on many religions, for it confuses those who are striving to know. Keep it simple; keep it logical.

I suppose believing anything without any reason to do so could be called faith. You could even stretch it to include things like believing that when you go to sleep you will wake up the next morning. Of course, it's not a baseless assumption; you've woken up every time you have gone to sleep so far in your life, but you don't actually know that you aren't going to die in your sleep this time. Expecting that you will wake up could be considered faith by some definitions.

(June 25, 2013 at 2:56 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: "Faith" apparently has many different interpretations. The same is true for the bible. That doesn't make any of them at all valid. When faith is put into the realm of one's own religion, it will look different when viewed by Muslims, Jainists, Buddhists...you name it. When looked at objectively by those who don't care what the Bible (or any other religious text) says simply because there's no reason to waste their time with it, then all subjective reasoning is omitted, and people can start being rational about the subject.

Put into that light, everyone in some form or another has faith. Even Atheists have faith. That does not make them religious because faith is not inherently divine in origin. There is good faith, and there is bad faith.

Good faith is used when putting trust into something that has not yet occurred, but there is plenty of valid and factual reasoning involved to get someone to that point. Having faith that your dog will come when you call him/her is a great example. Having faith that green men live on Mars, conversely, is not, as there is no proof/evidence to the claim.

Bad faith can also be referred to as blind faith. In the world of religions, all faith in god is blind faith simply because people are putting their trust into something based on someone else's assertion. Said assertion has not been proven. Blind faith is dangerous; the reason for this is that it affects the way a person thinks in a radical way.

Those with blind faith "know" that their assertions are true, when in fact no proof has been shown to substantiate their claims. The end results are not always bad...in fact, much good can come from believing in a deity. But put one little bit of shit into your brownie mix, and you now have shit brownies. Some religious parties refuse to acknowledge any scientific medical discoveries, and so they neglect to take their ill and dying relatives in for emergency care. Such neglect is not their fault. Rather, it is the fault of blind faith - it has affected their mind, and, in some extreme cases, you can't reason logically with them because such arguments are superseded by their god's logic.

Conclusively, asking "what is faith" should only yield one answer. Having many different definitions of the word is erroneous - adding qualifiers to it is also a bad move on many religions, for it confuses those who are striving to know. Keep it simple; keep it logical.

I disagree with your definition of good faith. At many times, you have little reason to expect the desired result. One can have faith in his flunking child that he will heed his warnings and turn his grades around. You can have faith in your steadily aging spouse that he will drive safely. "Having faith" in things is more of a last ditch effort that summons what you know about a person's true qualities (persistence, caution) and asks you to hope they will use them when you need them very much. People appreciate when this kind of faith is put in them because it reflects how much someone believes in who he or she is and the qualities he or she has.
By another definition, 'faith' is trust. Which is very much that for many religious people. Some of them claim to have had real experiences with the divine. I do not. The trust more contemplative religious people have in God comes from previous encounters with good in their lives. These encounters suggest that good is invisible and unchanging, and this good is what God is. The 'faith' part comes from the belief that the same being that has brought good into a life before will bring it again in times of trouble if you simply trust, or have faith in, Him.
Another thing is that the Bible does not preach knowing that God exists. It preaches that people simply shouldn't worry about life and hope that they will be loved and provided for (Luke 12:22) and offers no penalties for doubting that an invisible God exists (John 20:27). Faith is not an assertion for knowing anything, but having roots in logic, can be a basis for believing or thinking that something is true.. Religion itself is based on a belief that a higher power exists, and, and as such, is a faith, not a science or a secret knowledge, of a higher power.

(June 22, 2013 at 1:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You are, of course, conveniently ignoring the definition of Christian faith that I posted above Esq.

No, sorry you are no different than anyone else with a "faith" in a different deity than yours.

"faith" is a cop out word meaning "willful ignorance" that flies in the face of reality.

Mark Twain, "Faith is believing in things you know aint so".

Now see if you can spot the pattern.

If as you would like to believe "faith works"

The the following statements are true as well.

"I have "faith" Allah is the one true God"
"I have "faith" Yawheh is the one true God"
"I have "faith" that the gods of the Hindus are real"
"I have "faith" that the sun is a God"

Somehow I don't think you stupidly treat all those claims as equal by default in any serious logical sense. Otherwise if "faith" is all it takes, then you could pick anyone of those and it should not matter.

You know those other religions are simply ,mental placebos people buy into for comfort. The only difference between you and I is I have "faith" in one less god than you do. Understand why you reject the "faiths" of others and you'll understand why we reject your "faith" as well.

"Faith" is not a virtue it is a crutch, it is an insult to our human capability of figuring things out without superstition.

Yes. Ignore the facts Brian.