(July 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm)little_monkey Wrote: TROLL ALERT... TROLL ALERT


EDIT: The funny and sad thing is that these theists REALLY, REALLY think we've never heard these arguments before.

I'm not sure he's a troll.

(July 13, 2013 at 1:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: This does not need to be the first universe for this to be true. The first universe would have to attribute its existence to its cause, which would still have to be uncaused. If such cause could sustain itself infinitely before the creation of that universe, why couldn't it do so after? Nothing can be infinite on one end and not on the other. Provable fact.

go ahead and prove it. you're making an absolute statement, go ahead, prove it.

Quote:Ah, but there's a problem. You see, I made the statement that there was nothing of a certain brand. To prove it, I would have to physically show you the nothingness, which is impossible, because I'm stating a concept. The only way that what I said could be false is if you proved that there was something with no beginning and an end. All I can say are negatives.
For instance, numbers are infinite, and they have neither beginning nor end. I am asserting a negative. I can only be wrong if anybody provided a positive.

These "causes" sound very human with very human ideas of cooperation and authority. Also, go ahead and prove that, keeping in mind again, you're proving an absolute statement.

Quote: First of all, the uncaused cause of the universe would have to be ultimate truth because it caused everything to exist, which is all we know to be true.
There cannot be two ultimate truths. "The Earth orbits the Sun" and "The Sun orbits the Earth" cannot both be true in pertinence to the Earth's orbit.
However, "The Earth is round" and "The Earth has a curved surface" are both ultimately true in pertinence to the Earth's geometrical shape. That is because they say the same thing.
If these two ultimate causes both existed, they would both have to be ultimately true, which means they would both have to act identically to one another. If there is any contradiction between them, neither would be true, because the truth can't be self-contradictory.
If there were more than one uncaused cause, it would be as good as one. There is no reason to believe there are more than one.

while i'm thrilled that you brought up another one of your Provable fact this time i'm completely lost as to how it applies to your already sufficiently crazy theory.

i'm not even going to bother doing your homework for you this time and list all the baseless assumptions you've made. Partly for the fear of bringing up more baseless assumptions.

Quote:Of all things that exist, there are a few that can make the conscious decision whether or not to do something. These things are living, intelligent beings, like humans. The being, force, cause, whatever of the universe made a conscious decision to bring it into being.
Evidence?
The force that began the universe always existed, since there was nothing to bring it into being.
The causation of the universe was not made necessary, since there was nothing to make it necessary.
As far as we know (I am willing to take correction on this one, it is redundant anyway), there are no more universes that are being caused.
THEREFORE, the causation of the universe was a free choice, a conscious decision, and since only intelligent beings can make conscious decisions, the cause of the universe must be an intelligent being.

That's just assuming the creation of the universe was someone's choice. You still haven't proven a thing.

(July 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm)little_monkey Wrote: TROLL ALERT... TROLL ALERT


EDIT: The funny and sad thing is that these theists REALLY, REALLY think we've never heard these arguments before.

I'm sorry, but did you think that the atheist argument is a rollercoaster of new surprises?
Or that theism stands helpless in the face of the irrefutability of atheism?
Or that Christianity is a cult of deluded slaves that don't know what they're talking about?

(July 13, 2013 at 3:34 pm)Consilius Wrote:

(July 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm)little_monkey Wrote: TROLL ALERT... TROLL ALERT


EDIT: The funny and sad thing is that these theists REALLY, REALLY think we've never heard these arguments before.

I'm sorry, but did you think that the atheist argument is a rollercoaster of new surprises?
Or that theism stands helpless in the face of the irrefutability of atheism?
Or that Christianity is a cult of deluded slaves that don't know what they're talking about?

It's not an argument: it's a position. It's the "default position" if you will. Just like how a man is innocent until proven guilty, a claim is false until proven true. We take the stance of "We don't know enough to assert x, y and z."

(July 13, 2013 at 3:34 pm)Consilius Wrote:

(July 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm)little_monkey Wrote: TROLL ALERT... TROLL ALERT


EDIT: The funny and sad thing is that these theists REALLY, REALLY think we've never heard these arguments before.

I'm sorry, but did you think that the atheist argument is a rollercoaster of new surprises?

It sure looks that way for you as you have been repeatedly asked for evidence, and your only answer is: believe me because I'm right. If I can say anything about atheists, they won't let you get away if you don't produce any evidence. You can spew ad nauseum your nonsense for pages and pages, you won't change any mind until you answer that call: WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? If you don't have any, then you are totally wasting your time. And be prepared for the onslaught of derisions and insults.

Quote:Or that theism stands helpless in the face of the irrefutability of atheism?

So far, you're proving it with every post you make here on this forum.

Quote:Or that Christianity is a cult of deluded slaves that don't know what they're talking about?

Bingo. Now run away, little child.

(July 13, 2013 at 3:33 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: That's just assuming the creation of the universe was someone's choice. You still haven't proven a thing.

I don't think I made an assumption. I started from scratch and used existing information to come to a conclusion.
"The force that began the universe always existed, since there was nothing to bring it into being.
The causation of the universe was not made necessary, since there was nothing to make it necessary.
As far as we know (I am willing to take correction on this one, it is redundant anyway), there are no more universes that are being caused.
THEREFORE, the causation of the universe was a free choice."
"Free choice" was just a pitstop on the road to another conclusion, "intelligent being".
Take it this way. The most basic way to say "free choice" is that the force that caused the universe took action at a singular moment.
Why did it do so? The only options are: out of necessity, and out of planning.
Before anything existed, nothing existed to put pressure on the uncaused cause to do anything.
Unless there is another option, the causation of the universe was planned. Unless there is another option, uncaused cause chose to plan it. Decision making is an attribute of intelligent beings.

(July 13, 2013 at 3:45 pm)Consilius Wrote: uncaused cause

It's also called "magic". Why bother to create a universe based on cause and effect from a magic moment when that same magic moment could have created a universe full of magic?!???

(July 13, 2013 at 3:43 pm)little_monkey Wrote: It sure looks that way for you as you have been repeatedly asked for evidence, and your only answer is: believe me because I'm right. If I can say anything about atheists, they won't let you get away if you don't produce any evidence. You can spew ad nauseum your nonsense for pages and pages, you won't change any mind until you answer that call: WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE?

I think the call for evidence is one we should ALL be privileged to answer.
"Believe me because I'm right." Can you produce that quote, but from myself this time? Any suggestion of that quote? A single instance where I've based an assertion off my own authority?

Quote:If you don't have any, then you are totally wasting your time. And be prepared for the onslaught of derisions and insults.

Quote:Evidence?
The force that began the universe always existed, since there was nothing to bring it into being.

Assumption

Quote:The causation of the universe was not made necessary, since there was nothing to make it necessary.

Assumption. you still haven't addressed how causation works without time.

Quote:As far as we know (I am willing to take correction on this one, it is redundant anyway), there are no more universes that are being caused.

you clearly aren't willing to take any correction at all, as evidenced (this is how to use this word correctly, take notes) by your continued assertions of causation when i've said time only came into existence when the universe did. and see what you did there? you assumed that this universe is caused.

Quote:THEREFORE, the causation of the universe was a free choice, a conscious decision, and since only intelligent beings can make conscious decisions, the cause of the universe must be an intelligent being.

i'm not even going to bother.