tackattack Wrote:What I've come to realize in my brief time here is that In trying to "see God" a lot of atheists rely only on tangible, objective and scientific proof for their "world view". Am I wrong? Is this any worse than accepting belief on blind faith? I don't think it is. Let's use another metaphor:
You're told by 5 people that the twin towers have been blown up. You're skeptical, but after 100 people tell you and some of them were there, you want to see for yourself. You look in the news and internet for pictures and other "reliable evidence". You're still skeptical because the newspapers have an agenda and pictures can be doctored. You've determined to go "see it for yourself", which you can because it's a tangible place. You do and you believe. Long gone are the days when God takes people into the heavens and shows them true miracles. Maybe it's due to our skepticism, or lack of faith, idk. IMO heaven or the afterlife isn't a tangible place, but I believe it could exist and most likely does. If it does exist (which is unknowable) then I wouldn't need that much evidence to define what it really takes to get there. I can respect your search for truth and am perhaps the weaker for not struggling harder for proof. This is where we'll have to agree that without belief in the impossible we could never wholely agree. I'm sorry I couldn't provide the types of proof requested Void.

Of course blind faith is far worse as a means for truth finding than evidence based opinion. But you don't have to believe me. You can research this yourself. There is a nice little A/B test for this with which you can do this:

Go to a nearby road with heavy traffic and bring along with you a blindfold, earplugs, a thick rubber sheet, a pencil and a blank sheet of paper. We are gonna compare A - evidence based truth finding and B - faith based truth finding. Do the following experiments one after the other and repeat this say a hundred times to get a statistically significant sample.

A. Stand to the side of the road and use your senses to determine whether it is possible to cross it safely and act accordingly. Register the outcome of the experiment on a sheet of paper.

B. Stand to the side of the road again and put on the blindfold and earplugs and place yourself on the rubber sheet near to the road. Now determine whether it is possible to cross it safely on blind faith alone and act accordingly. You may take every time you need for this. Again, if possible, register the outcome of the experiment on a sheet of paper.

Now the registered results should clearly establish which method of truth finding works best for you.

Glad to have helped.

tackattack wrote:"While I respect your opinion and your background in religion. It's blatently obvious by your belittling dismissal that you are far too emotional to further the productivity of this topic."

I don't consider my position emotional but rather practical. Take a gander at the various times this very same subject has arisen in the various threads in this forum and tell me the outcome. They all end the same way! Theists asserting their belief in their deity of choice against all logic and reasonable arguments presented and atheists trying to squash the illogical fallacy that is faith.

Pippy my dismissal of your position is not done to offend, I have been there and have done that (fanatical religious practice) and basing myself on my experience and those around me at the time I can see through the lie that is religion. I am not claiming to know something other than what my fellow atheists see but I like to think I see things plainly and don't get so caught up in theological arguments based on faith and nothing more. In my view faith is not even factual it's not based on knowledge but rather on lack thereof. As I stated in another thread faith is the theists ultimate equalizer since it cannot be studied or refuted. With faith you just believe nothing has to make sense it just is. And for the few that try to make sense of faith (apologists) they have to redefine the terms logic and reason to fit their faith based worldview.

I wasn't offended, I just get snappy when double standards come out.

I perfectly understand and accept your dismissal of my position. I just don't like the "you choose god/I just am atheist" dichotomy. We are on different ends of the spectrum.

I would urge you to consider the difference between faith or belief and religion. I can understand your thought that religion is nonsensical, but not necessarily faith. I mean, I have some grievances with religions myself, but that is beside the point. It is a category I am not in, as I don't prescribe to any religion. I might be Daoist, but I am white and sometimes eat meat...

And while religion is about lack of knowledge, or lack of making sense, I don't think belief in god has to be. I believe in god in an attempt to make sense of this crazy existence, however it works out.

Thanks.

(December 30, 2009 at 10:02 pm)Pippy Wrote: I believe in god in an attempt to make sense of this crazy existence, however it works out.

Thanks.

So you would rather have the easy answer than face the fact that we just don't know?

"I would urge you to consider the difference between faith or belief and religion."

I have done this Pippy I have been an atheist going on 15 years and have tried to view belief in god, faith in god, and religion in general from as many angles as possible. Most of the time though when I attack faith in god I am speaking about Christianity and the biblical god. I am aware that many have different religious beliefs and place their faith on whatever concept of god their religion teaches, but generally I see religion as just another humans way of coping. Many people have trouble coping with the many twists and turns that this life presents us as a species and individually. Why do bad things happen to good people? Is one of the most asked questions by religionists and non religionists alike.

Belief in god provides hope for people that are always looking for answers to lifes most pressing and seemingly confounding questions. It is comforting to know that there is a magical guy in the sky looking down upon us and that everything is in his hands. It helps many find hope when things seem hopeless no matter how false that hope may be, it serves its purpose by playing the part of a placebo.

(December 30, 2009 at 10:27 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(December 30, 2009 at 10:02 pm)Pippy Wrote: I believe in god in an attempt to make sense of this crazy existence, however it works out.

Thanks.

So you would rather have the easy answer than face the fact that we just don't know?

Ahh, you don't quite know. I thought your stance was there is no god. Or, don't you know?

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It is very strange that Pippy believes in his God, and you question him, without asking him his definition of what his god is.
If you have no foundation how can you build on your debate & agrgument fore or against?. I am afraid that speculation and personal opinions do not hold water.

You guys don't know what Pippy understands his god to be, do you?

(December 31, 2009 at 9:44 pm)ib.me.ub Wrote:

(December 30, 2009 at 10:27 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(December 30, 2009 at 10:02 pm)Pippy Wrote: I believe in god in an attempt to make sense of this crazy existence, however it works out.

Thanks.

So you would rather have the easy answer than face the fact that we just don't know?

Ahh, you don't quite know. I thought your stance was there is no god. Or, don't you know?

I withhold judgement on God if that is what you were asking?

Quote:It is very strange that Pippy believes in his God, and you question him, without asking him his definition of what his god is.
If you have no foundation how can you build on your debate & agrgument fore or against?. I am afraid that speculation and personal opinions do not hold water.

You guys don't know what Pippy understands his god to be, do you?

I have a general idea of Pips polytheism so i don't need to redefine it every time it is bought up.

Anyway, it would not matter how Pip chooses to define god as i reject all supernatural claims at present - there is no evidence for the existence of any of them so therefore it's reasonable to dismiss all of them until such evidence arises.

A general idea. Well, that is quite vague.

Also, what if god could be defined as natuarlly occuring?

It's like fairies see; if someone believes in fairies I don't need to know what color they think they are to question the belief, besides everyone knows that no matter what god people SAY they believe in, they are really talking about a certain invisible, pink thing.

I must say no more...
Rhizo

Well considering your example, you need to say alot more....................

And who said fairies are pink?