(July 23, 2013 at 3:44 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 23, 2013 at 3:21 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Especially the concept of god is poisonous.

The concept of gods is dangerous, the reality of God is life.

No such thing as "reality of god".

(July 23, 2013 at 3:16 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 23, 2013 at 12:26 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: I wanted to stay away from this but .... you've wandered into my territory. Salt is poisonous.

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cpdb/chempages...ORIDE.html

Have a good read. Everything is poisonous at the right dose.

Not God.

This made me laugh, thanks.

(July 23, 2013 at 1:35 am)genkaus Wrote: You've been given the reason many times already. Causation is a temporal phenomena and time is an aspect of the universe. For there to be a cause of the universe, time would have to exist independently - which to our knowledge - it doesn't, so there isn't.

This would be true if the universe had been composed or developed. I am not saying it was.
Not all causation is temporal. A hand being run through water causes water to be displaced. The hand does not displace water before it is displaced; both cause and effect are simultaneous.
The causation of the universe is not a single event, rather, it was the prime mover in a series of causes and effects. They are not designed beforehand, but come into being as they happen.

(July 23, 2013 at 5:28 am)Consilius Wrote: This would be true if the universe had been composed or developed. I am not saying it was.

On the contrary, if the universe was composed or developed - two words which indicate time-dependence - then time would have to be independent of the universe and therefore universe would have a cause. But since time is not universe independent it was not composed or developed.

(July 23, 2013 at 5:28 am)Consilius Wrote: Not all causation is temporal.

You are correct. The appropriate term would be spatio-temporal. Not that it changes the point.

(July 23, 2013 at 5:28 am)Consilius Wrote: A hand being run through water causes water to be displaced. The hand does not displace water before it is displaced; both cause and effect are simultaneous.

Bad example. The water is displaced after the hand being placed. However minute the time difference may be, it is still there.

(July 23, 2013 at 5:28 am)Consilius Wrote: The causation of the universe is not a single event, rather, it was the prime mover in a series of causes and effects. They are not designed beforehand, but come into being as they happen.

Empty claim. No evidence of a prime mover.

My hand and the water cannot exist in the same place. They do not occupy the same space for any period of time before the water decides to move out of the way.

(July 23, 2013 at 5:55 am)Consilius Wrote: My hand and the water cannot exist in the same place. They do not occupy the same space for any period of time before the water decides to move out of the way.

The boundary between your hand and water is not as delineated as you like to think.

Nevertheless, the act of water moving out of a space while your hand moves in is time dependent. So they can and do occupy the same space for a period of time.

The water moves after it has been caused to move.
Two atoms cannot exist together in the same location. That is why our hands don't touch anything. The electrons repel other atoms and make no physical contact. At the point this force becomes present to the water atoms, motion is initiated. At one point, an atom would have been stationary, but an outside force made it to move at a single point in time. The atom then continues to move as time passes.

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: The water moves after it has been caused to move.

Good, you understand it then. The water mover after and the hand is the cause. So you get that there is time difference.

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: Two atoms cannot exist together in the same location.

Sure they can. Right now, all the atoms that make me are in the same location - my house.

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: That is why our hands don't touch anything.

Yeah, they kinda do.

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: The electrons repel other atoms and make no physical contact. At the point this force becomes present to the water atoms, motion is initiated. At one point, an atom would have been stationary, but an outside force made it to move at a single point in time. The atom then continues to move as time passes.

Wow. I knew better science than that when I was in high school. The "electrons" of my hand don't repel water molecules. If anything, they attract them. Which is why my hand is wet when I take it out of the water. If my hand was repelling water molecules, then it'd be dry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...ksyMWSygnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...E8rkG9Dw4s
http://clearscience.tumblr.com/post/6193...ause-their

(July 24, 2013 at 12:43 am)genkaus Wrote:

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: Two atoms cannot exist together in the same location.

Sure they can. Right now, all the atoms that make me are in the same location - my house.

(July 23, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: That is why our hands don't touch anything.

Yeah, they kinda do.

Consilius is correct to a degree on these parts. Though not atoms, the subatomic particles We understand as protons and electrons with the exception of neutrons (because they have no charge) that all make up atoms are not structured to regularly occupy the same spacial dimensions at the same chronological dimension without a significant reaction. As such, a proton, electron, and neutrino will build a neutron, but the energy required makes that event impossible on many occasions. This happens in collapsing stars however. Neutrally charged particles can pass through one another, occupying the same spacial dimensions without significant interaction. A good example of this is the basic neutrino, because neutrons interact via the strong nuclear force with protons. When 2 particles overlap they behave much like waves. Their size will not change but their charge (if any) and total mass will. However, they are never counted as 1 particle, they remain independent. Particles do not occupy the same space at the same time perfectly.