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One question for Christians
RE: One question for Christians
You believe your buddy that wrote the article you pasted back at me refuted everything in my "elephant". If you believe his lies, then you're just as deluded as he is. If anything in his claims can be proven, then where the hell is his Peace prize for bringing this argument to rest? That's right...it shouldn't even be an argument because he's fucking insane, and so is whoever believes the story of Noah's ark to be a literal account.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Size of the Ark: Wood is structurally unsound at that size, especially with the number of animals on board.

I thought you said you read the article I posted? Or did you just read the beginning of it? Sarfati already addressed this question.

He didn't address horseshit, but he ate a pile of it before spewing it all back out.

"This argument is often parroted, but is just as bogus as the others. The Ark was built for stability, not movement."

The ark was built, but nothing else besides the size of it is known. Whether or not it was built for stability, movement, flight, or space travel is all speculation.

"A flat-bottomed barge like the Ark wouldn’t have problems with sag. If the lower deck were made of logs, four layers deep, it would have been very sturdy. If they were teak logs, especially specially treated by being buried for a while, the ark would have been especially seaworthy."

For each point he makes, they both begin with the word "if". His credibility is lost on people with brains.


"Woodmorappe points this out too, and much more, so Isaak is dishonest to ignore that."

Isaak doesn't speculate or believe in things that aren't demonstrably true. This guy is a real piece of work, SW.

"Korean naval architects have confirmed that a barge with the Ark’s dimensions would have optimal stability. They concluded that if the wood were only 30 cm thick, it could have navigated sea conditions with waves higher than 30 m (S.W. Hong et al., “Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a Seaway”, CEN Technical Journal 8(1):26–36, 1994. All the co-authors are on the staff of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Ocean Engineering, Taijon.)” - http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp"

If certain conditions were met, there could have been an ark. We don't know what the conditions were, and we don't know exactly its composition, so we need to be more skeptical than speculative here. So far, your elephant has only speculated on how it could be true; it is still horseshit.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Unbelievable amounts of Shit: Shit shit shit, everywhere there's shit. Those 8 family members would be shoveling animal dung all day long.

This isn’t really a problem, using channeling systems most ships make it so gravity will do the shoveling for them, it’s not like you have to keep it on board the entire trip.

You don't know how they disposed of it, if they did, or if god magically whisked it away every day. You just don't know, so you can't claim anything here to be factual. The amount of shit there had to be on that ark is about the same that this Noah's Ark story amounts to.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:Food: Storage and amounts would also be an issue. Where do the carnivores get the meat if there is only two of everything...I mean...there was only two of everything, right? Oh, no, the Bible actually contradicts itself again by saying there might have been 7 pairs of each, that is, 14 of each kind of animal. Which brings up the next point:

Carnivores (even snakes) can survive on a vegetarian diet, so that again is not a problem.

Ask any zookeeper, and they'll tell you how much of a problem it is when an animal goes without their normal diet. You are also assuming they didn't eat meat, so your counter-argument is completely unjustified. I still smell horseshit, SW.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: As for your point about pairs and sevens, Sarfati already addressed that point as well in the article you’ve claimed to have read.

Just because I don't agree with the article doesn't mean I didn't read it. Do you really think the Bible would convert me if I read it cover to cover again? Do you think the Book of Mormon would convert you if you but read it? My point here should be pretty obvious, methinks.

“Isaak claims that the Flood account in Genesis is self-contradictory, apparently ignorant of the standard Ancient Near Eastern literary practice of making a general statement, then elaborating on specifics. The Bible first makes a general statement that a male and female of each kind of land vertebrate was to be loaded on board the Ark. Then it elaborates on this general rule by requiring seven of the very few clean animals. Gen. 7:9 says the animals went on to the Ark “by twos” (NASB), referring to the mode of entry, not the numbers.”

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Read literally, it's self-contradictory. With special knowledge and special pleading, it's not. His interpretation is just that: an interpretation, and it's about as worthless as all the horseshit on that ark.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: How many animals on the ark? : You seriously can't tell me you think that Noah put all of the 1 1/2 million kinds of animal on such a small, wooden boat? Then there's that food issue again...

Again, this point was already addressed in the article that I am beginning to suspect you only read the first couple paragraphs of.

You suspected that a bit ago, and you're allowed to think I didn't read it. I don't care. I can go ahead and believe that you slept with a male prostitute last night, and I can either be right or wrong in my assumption.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:


2,000 animals? That’s far fewer than most major zoos have.

I actually focused on this little snippet the most, because it's the only part of the article that actually delved into any kind of science. But in the end, it's simply wrong because the fossil record paints a very different picture of history and how many different species were alive back then. I'm going to stick with 1 1/2 million.

Also, 2000 animals for eight people to take care of? What a logistical nightmare. Apparently, not only did God kill everyone else on earth, but he must have had an underlying hatred for Noah as well as to make his family suffer on a cramped boat with, as your buddy says, 2000 animals.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:


You seem to be getting a bit flustered; that happens.

I'm flustered because you're acting like a stubborn five year old when I know you're much smarter than this! If you believe this rot, then why is it so hard, let's say, to believe that Hercules accomplished his twelve labours?

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You should actually read the entire article because the question about the mountains is addressed in the article as well (even you believe the highest mountains were covered by water at some point in time, they have marine fossils.)

Undecided From a flood that supposedly lasted a year and 10 days? Not because of that, no. But if you knew how mountains formed (meaning their elevation was not always so high), then you wouldn't even need to postulate a global flood.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: If the oceanic floors raised, which is supported by the creation model, there’d be more than enough water to cover the entire globe. You obviously are just not very familiar with the material on this subject.

You're right, I'm not as familiar on these things. But that's because I don't make it a habit of researching things that require bucketloads of speculation. The Oceanic floors raised? You only get that from first assuming that there was a seven day period of creation. That kind of thinking isn't for me. I like to use my imagination on theories that have potential.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: (And I read your piece of shit article that you pasted back at me.

Apparently not.


I suppose you'll never know for sure. I'm sure glad I'm not going to try and convince you that I did.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: You're ill-informed if you believe that. This argument is true for the former, but it doesn't work that way for the latter. How do you know the hypothesis was that the earth was 6000 years old, but was proven wrong when it turned out to be much, much more? Science turns up wrong hypotheses all the time, which lead to amazing discoveries. You've just proven to me that you have no grounds to argue against science because you have no idea how it comes up with results. Please come down from bullshit mountain, SW.

Simmer down. Old ages for the Earth rely entirely upon uniformitarian assumptions (which were first postulated by Lisle, who did not believe the Earth was 6,000 years old, so your assertions about testing the biblical hypothesis were plain wrong), of course this assumes that no global flood ever occurred; so you’ve adopted anti-biblical assumptions in order to argue that the Bible is wrong, that’s begging the question and proves nothing.

You mean no scientist out there wanted to prove the Bible correct with evidence?

Also, why should we assume a Global Flood happened? Because the Bible said so? This is such a huge logical fallacy. Say the flood really happened, but there was no Bible - scientists would measure the age of the earth without factoring in a flood, but they would probably stumble upon the evidence for one. Take that example, and flip the evidence, that is, there is a bible, but there was no flood.

You need to stop this conspiracy theory of yours that there is an agenda against the Bible. Defending that piece of crock doesn't get anyone very far in this life. I ridicule the thing because it is worthy of a good mockery. However, I can't say any research into scientific theories is anti-biblical because when I do sit down to learn and read, I don't even factor the bible into my studies. Now piss off about that idea, unless you want to move on to talk about your holy book.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Scientific laws are descriptive, so to say they “cause” anything is a category error. I want to know what actually causes the pen to fall to the ground. Simply asserting that “gravity” does isn’t going to cut it.

The term gravity itself is descriptive. I'm not going to go down this ill-fated rabbit hole with you. I'm okay that you don't like my answer. BTW, have you ever known the properties of gravity to change?

Also, science only changes because new evidence arises. If a scientific theory is wrong today, I'm okay with propagating it anyway because I'm still being true to the available, demonstrable and reproducible evidence. You are being true to zero evidence when you put your faith in god.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: There’s no bold in what you typed, go back and check.

I must unfortunately come to the conclusion that you are blind. The point was lost on you anyway, so I'm done with that.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:


Whether or not you like what God does is irrelevant.

It's very relevant if he wants me to worship him.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Direct revelation is closed, so God is not telling anyone to kill anyone else. Why is it morally wrong for God to kill someone? I am not following your logic on that one at all.

ROFLOL

You're not squirming out of this one so easily. Say that your assumption that direct revelation was closed was wrong (and god was real, and direct revelation was true, and yadda yadda), then if God told you to kill me, would you feel justified doing so?

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Sure they can, most people who come to the faith come to the faith because of reasons presented by other believers.

You condone turning people into Lemmings? I just wonder if these people are only subsisting on another person's testimony or if they are actually considering the concepts for themselves.

On that note, I talk with you not because I want to deconvert you, however nice that would be, but instead to get rational thoughts flowing between us. You can choose to listen or not, but I'll feel good if I at least get my point across.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:


My reasons for rejecting Mormonism are not based upon evidence or a lack of evidence (I am still not sure what you‘d accept as evidence for God), it is far more fundamental than that. Mormonism is polytheistic in nature, and polytheism is not logically defensible. That’s why I reject Mormonism.

Now it feels like we're getting someplace good with this. Maybe we should drop the whole Noah's Ark thing because it pisses me the fuck off and instead focus a bit more on this stuff, what do you say to that?

Anyway, I want to hear more about why you think monotheism is more defensible than polytheism. To me, either claim seems just as baseless as any claim to a supernatural being or beings, but I suppose you're coming from a position that already accepts god as true. Is it because the OT says in the Ten Commandments that there will be no other gods before Yahweh? I'm assuming there's much more to this.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:Oh, you mean forcing Atheism on a nation? Man, I'm talking about natural Atheism caused by reason and understanding on a personal level.

That’s not possible because Humans naturally prefer theism over atheism.

All babies are born atheists. They have to be indoctrinated before they can believe in a god. This may be considered by the Christian community as Atheist Propaganda...and I don't care because it's spot on.





(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: You mean, have I seen any peer reviews or reproducible evidence? Please don't throw a strawman at me.

You only believe in that which has been peer-reviewed? Really?

What do you think? I'm not doing this silly dance with you; we were talking about claims that are out of the ordinary.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You’re far more consistent than most atheists who ridicule belief in God but then will argue until they are blue in the face that little green men exist.

I'm pretty cool like that. My wife and I tell each other that we're good for one another since we aren't afraid to call the other out on his or her bullshit.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote:I don't believe in the use of faith, so no. The disbelief in god(s) is, when restated, a negative belief, or the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is also the standard position that one should take before being convinced with evidence that meets one's standard.

Any position can be stated as the negative position, so that’s not going to work.

Actually, that's exactly why it works.

(July 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You’ll have to first prove that neutral ground exists before you start asserting that atheists are standing on such ground when they examine the veracity of scripture.

Do you mean I'm not allowed to disbelieve scripture? Disbelief doesn't need to be proven, so I'm not going there with you.
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RE: One question for Christians
(July 23, 2013 at 9:28 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: You believe your buddy that wrote the article you pasted back at me refuted everything in my "elephant". If you believe his lies, then you're just as deluded as he is. If anything in his claims can be proven, then where the hell is his Peace prize for bringing this argument to rest? That's right...it shouldn't even be an argument because he's fucking insane, and so is whoever believes the story of Noah's ark to be a literal account.

<snipped rest of fluff>

How sure are you that the Bible even specifies a global flood?
While you thinking about that, what exactly is your literal interpretation of the flood narrative?
Reply
RE: One question for Christians
(July 23, 2013 at 9:47 pm)catfish Wrote: How sure are you that the Bible even specifies a global flood?

Genesis 7:19 - The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.

If you mistake the author's words to mean something else, then why?

(July 23, 2013 at 9:47 pm)catfish Wrote: ...what exactly is your literal interpretation of the flood narrative?

I don't take the bible literally. I don't even take it for toilet paper.
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RE: One question for Christians
(July 23, 2013 at 9:59 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote:
(July 23, 2013 at 9:47 pm)catfish Wrote: How sure are you that the Bible even specifies a global flood?

Genesis 7:19 - The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.

If you mistake the author's words to mean something else, then why?

Are those the author's words or the translator's? (I bet you don't care)
Reply
RE: One question for Christians
(July 23, 2013 at 10:06 pm)catfish Wrote:
(July 23, 2013 at 9:59 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Genesis 7:19 - The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.

If you mistake the author's words to mean something else, then why?

Are those the author's words or the translator's? (I bet you don't care)

As I don't hold the Bible in any authoritative position, your bet that I don't care is a good one. However, it is the translator's words...in practically every translation. It's merely up to interpretation to understand what is meant by "all" and "under the heavens". What you do with that is about as useful as giving a pig a bath.
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RE: One question for Christians
Right, so you like bathing with pigs, I understand.
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RE: One question for Christians
I...do?
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RE: One question for Christians
Your words? " It's merely up to interpretation to understand what is meant by "all" and "under the heavens". What you do with that is about as useful as giving a pig a bath. "

You are in here arguing interpretation of the Bible. How was I supposed to interpret your words? (I took them at face value, I.E. you meant what you said)

Soooo, Imma gunna just assert that any idiotic moron who believes that the Bible specifically states a world-wide flood is clearly insane and quite delusional.
Reply
RE: One question for Christians
There does seem to be general agreement on the gist of this particular bit of holy horseshit among translators, though.

Quote:◄ Genesis 7:19 ►
New International Version (©2011)
They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth,

English Standard Version (©2001)
And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Then the waters surged even higher on the earth, and all the high mountains under the whole sky were covered.

International Standard Version (©2012)
The flood water surged even higher throughout the earth, until all the highest mountains under the sky were covered.

NET Bible (©2006)
The waters completely inundated the earth so that even all the high mountains under the entire sky were covered.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The water rose very high above the earth. It covered all the high mountains everywhere under the sky.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

American King James Version
And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

American Standard Version
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the waters prevailed beyond measure upon the earth: and all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.

Darby Bible Translation
And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth; and all the high mountains that are under all the heavens were covered.

English Revised Version
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered.

World English Bible
The waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth. All the high mountains that were under the whole sky were covered.

Young's Literal Translation
And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens;

You don't want to get like G-C, catty. When confronted with an obvious turd in his bible he will assert some translation - known apparently only to him and/or shitheads like him - which disposes of the problem. You do not want to go down that road.

BTW, this particular passage serves a very obvious point. In the Greek myth of Deucalion some men survived the flood by climbing to the tops of various mountains. Well...it wouldn't do to have the jewish bullshit god outfoxed by mere mortals so this correction was written into the story....so that ONLY Noah and his merry band survived. When yahweh the bloody-handed stages a fucking genocide he wants it to be complete genocide, motherfucker!

It is also evidence that the bible tale was written after the Deucalion myth which first shows up in Hesiod (late 8th to late 7th centuries BC) which is not too long after the Greek alphabet began to spread into common usage.
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RE: One question for Christians
(July 23, 2013 at 10:21 pm)catfish Wrote: Soooo, Imma gunna just assert that any idiotic moron who believes that the Bible specifically states a world-wide flood is clearly insane and quite delusional.

Glad to have you aboard, Mr Fish!

Did Noah’s Flood Cover the Whole Earth? by John D. Morris
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply



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