(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: In my matrix thread one of you said God was not a very nice deity because He was 'testing us' and did not ask us if we wanted to be tested..

Then I proceeded to ask a series of questions that got me thinking...

What if He did ask us...

What if..

Every Soul on this planet elected to be here. what if we begged and pleaded to be here for this chance to prove ourselves. or rather to re prove ourselves as loyal to God?

When Lucifer fell from Heaven he did not goto Hell. He fell on Earth, and 1/3 of heaven's population fell with him. Traditional dogma identifies these fallen "angels" as Demons.

My question is what if 'we' are those fallen? In that We have been falling from heaven in every generation since Adam? What if we Begged to have our minds wiped and placed on trial here for a 'life time' to prove that we/our hearts are worthy and will choose God if given the chance?!? That we would turn and rebuke the deceptive teachings of lucifer who tricked us into following him in heaven orginally? Maybe that is why so many bad things happen here, because we live/Are a brood of Demons, who have been given one last chance to seek salvation/forgiveness of our sins... Someone of us really want that forgiveness while others want to create a hell on earth! To live in a world without God.

That is a spooky thought, but I guess it really does not change anything, other than answer the question why or how God can justify an eternity in hell for one life time of sins.. Answer: our sins are not limited to one life time.

Drich, that little exercise u just did....man has been doing since forever...what if?...why?....how? and the next thing u know we have a religion starting.....Oooooor they take an already established religion ...say "what if" ...i take this piece of scripture...and a little piece of that scripture and whalall...another denomination starting or more dogma......This is why since a young adult I have never paid any attention to this MAN MADE CLAP TRAP.

EXAMPLE:

The Mormons took this:

2 Corinthians 12:2
King James Version (KJV)
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven."

<<<< and a couple other pieces of scripture and worked on it and worked on it came up with this >>>>>

http://www.utlm.org/images/eternalprogression.gif

nice...huh....bet that's all "crazy talk"......right??? and from what I gather even us atheist's get into momon heaven where we can deny christ face to face
.....after all you biblical studies and your still asking "what if"...i thought all the answers were in there.....is it not clear enough

.

There is no way I would beg and plea to be thrown onto this forsaken planet all to appease a deity.

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: What if He did ask us...

What if..

Every Soul on this planet elected to be here. what if we begged and pleaded to be here for this chance to prove ourselves. or rather to re prove ourselves as loyal to God?

That is one might big what if. Are we looking at it as a potential story line or do you actually think it plausible. (If the latter, please seek help!)

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: Every Soul on this planet elected to be here.

Dafuq?

There was a questionnaire pre-birth? Do you wish to be on this planet? (Y/N) __

And souls don't exist.

And neither does your god.

Otherwise, I'm sure your "interesting thought" had a lot of merit.

This is in answer to Drich's request as to how this all relates to what Mormons believe, since he can't just trust someone who is an ex-Mormon.

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: What if..

Every Soul on this planet elected to be here. what if we begged and pleaded to be here for this chance to prove ourselves. or rather to re prove ourselves as loyal to God?

Doctrine and Covenants. 93:29. 6 May 1833.
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
(See also Jeremiah 1:5)

"In the spirit world...spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here." -Brigham Young

Wikipedia - The LDS Plan of Salvation

Quote:Human beings would be born on Earth. There they would receive a physical body necessary to exaltation and a fullness of joy. On earth, they would be tested through trials of their faith, and be subject to mortality. A "veil" would be set in place to obscure humankind's memory of its divine origins, thus allowing for "walking by faith" and for greater freedom of choice by enabling individuals to make their own decisions.

According to Mormon Doctrine, there were still choices to made in the pre-existence, and that is made clear in the subsequent ideas about the "war in heaven".

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: When Lucifer fell from Heaven he did not goto Hell. He fell on Earth, and 1/3 of heaven's population fell with him.

Quote:The pre-mortal Jesus Christ, then known as Jehovah, volunteered to be [the] Savior... ...Lucifer volunteered to save mankind by taking away man's agency. Nobody would be able to fail the test...[Heavenly Father] rejected Lucifer's plan. ...Lucifer chose to rebel against Heavenly Father and rallied to him "a third part" of Heavenly Father's children who also preferred Lucifer's plan. The two factions warred, and Lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven...

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: My question is what if 'we' are those fallen?

This is when you start to stray a bit from the Mormon interpretation of the account, but other than this you were pretty spot on. That's why I compared it to Mormon Doctrine, which is actually a simple continuation of many notions held about Heaven during the 1800s.

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: What if we Begged to have our minds wiped and placed on trial here for a 'life time' to prove that we/our hearts are worthy and will choose God if given the chance?!?

The Mormons call this wiping of the mind "the veil".

Mormon Beliefs - The Preexistence

Quote:None of us on earth has a memory of the premortal existence. This is because a “veil of forgetfulness” has been drawn over our minds.

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: Maybe that is why so many bad things happen here, because we live/Are a brood of Demons...

Again, so close to Mormon Doctrine. They don't believe that people actually are these demons, as they believe the demons and Lucifer are all spirits, but they think they're being influenced by them all the time, and they have to use their "agency" to overcome these demons. Although, I tend to think that blaming the devil for bad occurrences is irresponsible of us, as that is merely shifting the blame to something we can't possibly know for a certainty even exists.

Is somebody going to tell him that the Matrix movies drew upon themes from multiple world religions?

I guess not.




Since the beginning of recorded history, mankind has puzzled about what makes life and mind what it is. In that, such speculations have generally tracked understanding of physics and devices of the time. For some ancients, the breath was associated with life, and the substance of man with the breath. The Stoics imagined fire as the universal animating principle, and thus the nature of mind was an interaction between the fire of god and the air or breath of the pneuma. Somewhere along the way, the spirit became incorporeal. However, when machines were developed, the ideas of the self echoed the fascination with machines by imagining clockwork beings, powered by steam or electricity. Now that the epitome of a thinking machine is a computer, the mind is analogized to a computer, despite the fact that the computational architecture of the brain is vastly different. I occasionally visit with a group which studies the works of Jane Roberts, who channels an entity known as Seth. At one such meeting, I came across a passage in one of their books which referred to a record of all conscious activity and thought, similar to the Akashic record, yet true to form for a modern author, the records were stored in a type of computer-like data bank.

---

In philosophy, one theory of justification, of knowing whether or not something is true or justified, is whether it is consistent with whatever else is known and believed. (Not to be confused with the coherence theory of truth. This form of 'coherentism' is about justification, not truth per se.) I haven't had time to pursue my studies in that direction, but what I suspect from my brief glances and other studies is, that while coherence or consistency is a necessary part of justification, it by itself is not sufficient to guarantee truth. Unfortunately, a lot of theological speculation, such as this here, only satisfies coherence; it doesn't reach anywhere close to justifying believing it as true. But you can't tell that to many religious people; they think that if they can construct a coherent story, they're on to something. Perhaps, but you need considerably more before you should take such stories seriously.

(July 26, 2013 at 8:59 am)Drich Wrote: 'christians' or people who call themselves that won't be the only one in heaven.
Christ did not say no one comes to the Father, but by Christianity. Christ is the finial judge and he will decide who is 'Christian' and who is not. The titles we give ourselves are meaningless.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus? No salvation outside the church? Why did all those missionaries sail across the globe if not out of the firm belief that these people would actually burn in hell for not praying to Jesus Christ? Now you're giving a very different view, a watered-down modernized one, but isn't it funny how so many people referring to the same doctrine, the same text and the same savoir come up with so many different and conflicting interpretations? Some of which change fundamentally as times change? To me that thoroughly underlines that any religion is merely a human construct established as a remedy to very human issues.

(July 26, 2013 at 10:13 am)tokutter Wrote: Drich, that little exercise u just did....man has been doing since forever...what if?...why?....how? and the next thing u know we have a religion starting.....

Only if the man doing his questioning does not yield to the authority and finality of scripture/The Holy Spirit.

Quote:Oooooor they take an already established religion ...say "what if" ...i take this piece of scripture...and a little piece of that scripture and whalall...another denomination starting or more dogma......This is why since a young adult I have never paid any attention to this MAN MADE CLAP TRAP.

EXAMPLE:

Quote:The Mormons took this:

2 Corinthians 12:2
King James Version (KJV)
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven."

<<<< and a couple other pieces of scripture and worked on it and worked on it came up with this >>>>>

http://www.utlm.org/images/eternalprogression.gif

nice...huh....bet that's all "crazy talk"......right???

Indeed.. Now do you see the difference between what the mormons did and what I just did?

They as per your own example paired a doctrine based threory with several scriptural scraps, and built a church doctrine around it (If your a mormon this is what you have to believe.) Where "What if" can be dismissed by anyone at any point. (believer or not) it simply inspires one to truly think on your own. Don't let a church tell you what to think, at the same time don't let a professor tell you what to think either. Go out and learn to think on your own.

Quote: and from what I gather even us atheist's get into momon heaven where we can deny christ face to face

I have no doubt in my mind that most atheist and most mormons will be sent to the same place, hell (pun intended) that's probably the only real truth in their whole system of belief.

Quote:.....after all you biblical studies and your still asking "what if"...

I have been teaching A/S/K since I got here. the Knock part means to continue to seek to continue to ask. In essence, To repeat. Because once the flood gates open you will find a series of other doors. I eventually want to open all of the ones that have been made avaiable to us to open. They will not open unless you A/S/K.

That is why i answer all of yalls questions. Some of you ask things I would not have thought to ask, and sometimes the answers I come to, open doors I did not know to even knock on.

Quote:i thought all the answers were in there.....is it not clear enough

The answers to salvation? Yes. The answers to eternity past, to eternity future, the answers to our vast universe? No not even close.

One of the things this game of 'what if' has brought is clarity on a great number of repeat questions I have been asked and questions I myself have asked. Like with the prodigal son...

In the Story it starts out with two sons and a Father. One son stays and does what is asked, and the other rebells aqnd goes out into the world.

The church at large believes this to be a story about back sliding. Being a christian and then leaving the faith, and then comming back, but this one story is not in line with the other 2 told in luke 15. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

We also have the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin in chapter 15. which all three start out as a whole or group (from the beginning) being divided. and then what was 'lost' returns. To which there is great rejoicing. But, the thing is We also have to remember there was no such thing as christianity when Christ told these stories. So backsliders are not the primary focous of Christ's efforts in this story. He simply refers to the lost as "sinners," which on mass it the term used to describ all of the unsaved/unrepentant 'souls'.

Which would mean we ALL were apart of the herd, or all in the coin purse, or were all the second son, and then we were lost. The only story that describes a seperation like the one Christ talks about in luke 15 is the division of the Heavenly body, where 1/3 of Heaven's population was cast out. Meaning 'we' became lost to God. We became that coin, the sheep, that lost son.

The only question that remains is how long are we going to 'sleep with pigs' before we return home to embrace our Father and be restored as 'sons?' How long before we let the shepard find us? How long before we return to the coin purse?

See, stuff like this is why I'm here. I have not given any of this a thought or put any of this together till I was writting it out.

Thank you for your question!

---

(July 26, 2013 at 10:46 am)Psykhronic Wrote: There is no way I would beg and plea to be thrown onto this forsaken planet all to appease a deity.

What if you were being consumed by Hell fire?? Don't think you'd ask for a second chance...

Things like this make me wonder if the "Hell dream" I had was a dream and not a memory.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

---

(July 26, 2013 at 11:43 am)whateverist Wrote:

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: What if He did ask us...

What if..

Every Soul on this planet elected to be here. what if we begged and pleaded to be here for this chance to prove ourselves. or rather to re prove ourselves as loyal to God?

That is one might big what if. Are we looking at it as a potential story line or do you actually think it plausible. (If the latter, please seek help!)

The latter pulls several 'loose ends' (Scripturally speaking into place.)

---

(July 26, 2013 at 2:10 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Doctrine and Covenants. 93:29. 6 May 1833.
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be."
(See also Jeremiah 1:5)

"In the spirit world...spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here." -Brigham Young

Wikipedia - The LDS Plan of Salvation

First off the Greatest and most convincing deceptions are almost always based on 1/2 truths. That said nothing that I said has anything to do with either of your quotes are saying.

Quote:The pre-mortal Jesus Christ, then known as Jehovah, volunteered to be [the] Savior... ...Lucifer volunteered to save mankind by taking away man's agency. Nobody would be able to fail the test...[Heavenly Father] rejected Lucifer's plan. ...Lucifer chose to rebel against Heavenly Father and rallied to him "a third part" of Heavenly Father's children who also preferred Lucifer's plan. The two factions warred, and Lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven...

(July 25, 2013 at 12:54 am)Drich Wrote: My question is what if 'we' are those fallen?

Gotquestions.org says:
While there is no verse that says a "third of the angels fell from heaven," some verses, when put together, lead us to that conclusion. Sometime after their creation, and most certainly after the sixth day when everything was declared “very good” (Genesis 1:31), Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven. “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12). When Lucifer sinned, Jesus said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18), and in the book of the Revelation Satan is seen as “a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth” (Revelation 9:1).

We are also told that one third of an “innumerable company of angels” (Hebrews 12:22) chose to rebel with him. John saw this great wonder in heaven, “…an enormous red dragon…His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth…the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him” (Revelation 12:3-9).

Since Satan is referred to as a star which fell or was cast down to earth, and Revelation 12:4 says a third of the stars were cast out with him, then the conclusion is that the stars in Revelation 12 refer to fallen angels, fully one third of the heavenly host. If the one-third number is in fact accurate, what assurance that is! Two thirds of the angels are still on God's side, and for followers of Christ, they are on our side as well.



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/one-third-an...z2aGqINqAl

The Fall Happened, the exact number is unknown, but eitherway no one can dispute what has happened. Lucifer fell from Heaven to earth, 1/3 of a great mass with Him. Lucifer could hide easy enough, but what about everyone else of that 1/3? where are they hiding? Unless we are that 1/3.

Quote:This is when you start to stray a bit from the Mormon interpretation of the account, but other than this you were pretty spot on. That's why I compared it to Mormon Doctrine, which is actually a simple continuation of many notions held about Heaven during the 1800s.

Actually I did some reseach and if this is something that was believed in the 1800's google knows nothing about it/It was not documented very well.

Quote:The Mormons call this wiping of the mind "the veil".

Again some of the greatest deceptions are based on 1/2 truths.
Look at some of the 'other religions' who start out with the God of the bible.

Does it mean that just because a false religion adopts a truth, that the truth they adopted then becomes false?
no. That what spiritual descernement is.

What if.. The Father of all lies set up Mormonism based on his onesided perspective and his world view? Would not at least 1/2 of it be compatiable with What God has told us?

Quote:Again, so close to Mormon Doctrine. They don't believe that people actually are these demons, as they believe the demons and Lucifer are all spirits, but they think they're being influenced by them all the time, and they have to use their "agency" to overcome these demons. Although, I tend to think that blaming the devil for bad occurrences is irresponsible of us, as that is merely shifting the blame to something we can't possibly know for a certainty even exists.

I would say that is miles apart. I have open asked what if we were the Fallen, not what if we live apart from the demons in another life, mind wiped and born into this life and are influenced by demons.

No, we are the wicked (As per Christ and Paul) who's only influence is our own deceptive and proud hearts.
We have no one to point at but our own selves as to the desisions we make.

---

(July 26, 2013 at 3:54 pm)apophenia Wrote:


Is somebody going to tell him that the Matrix movies drew upon themes from multiple world religions?

I guess not.




Since the beginning of recorded history, mankind has puzzled about what makes life and mind what it is. In that, such speculations have generally tracked understanding of physics and devices of the time. For some ancients, the breath was associated with life, and the substance of man with the breath. The Stoics imagined fire as the universal animating principle, and thus the nature of mind was an interaction between the fire of god and the air or breath of the pneuma. Somewhere along the way, the spirit became incorporeal. However, when machines were developed, the ideas of the self echoed the fascination with machines by imagining clockwork beings, powered by steam or electricity. Now that the epitome of a thinking machine is a computer, the mind is analogized to a computer, despite the fact that the computational architecture of the brain is vastly different. I occasionally visit with a group which studies the works of Jane Roberts, who channels an entity known as Seth. At one such meeting, I came across a passage in one of their books which referred to a record of all conscious activity and thought, similar to the Akashic record, yet true to form for a modern author, the records were stored in a type of computer-like data bank.

---

In philosophy, one theory of justification, of knowing whether or not something is true or justified, is whether it is consistent with whatever else is known and believed. (Not to be confused with the coherence theory of truth. This form of 'coherentism' is about justification, not truth per se.) I haven't had time to pursue my studies in that direction, but what I suspect from my brief glances and other studies is, that while coherence or consistency is a necessary part of justification, it by itself is not sufficient to guarantee truth. Unfortunately, a lot of theological speculation, such as this here, only satisfies coherence; it doesn't reach anywhere close to justifying believing it as true. But you can't tell that to many religious people; they think that if they can construct a coherent story, they're on to something. Perhaps, but you need considerably more before you should take such stories seriously.

is someone going to tell her she is posting in the wrong thread?

(July 25, 2013 at 9:31 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 25, 2013 at 9:25 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I don't know about Mormon doctrine; this stuff sounds a lot like Scientology to me.

what part?

The words.

(July 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 26, 2013 at 10:46 am)Psykhronic Wrote: There is no way I would beg and plea to be thrown onto this forsaken planet all to appease a deity.

What if you were being consumed by Hell fire?? Don't think you'd ask for a second chance...

Things like this make me wonder if the "Hell dream" I had was a dream and not a memory.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

Certainly seems like just a dream. And what's the point of having a second chance when I became a damned atheist anyway? Back to hellfire, right? Not really much of a chance, thanks God's plan!