It all stems from this:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-20055-page-4.html

After some discussion, someone pointed out:

Quote: atheists are people who rather dwell on the simple pleasures of life. They are not bothered with anything else, and they disregard any other notions around them.

But, it is also true that

Quote: [to] other atheists, examining those "other notions" happen to be a part of those pleasures that we enjoy. Intellectual pleasure is still pleasure.

Now, after reading this, a question came into my mind: what is the point for religions in negating earthly pleasure?
I think one reason is that earthly pleasure means simple distraction from intellectual activities (like, say, going out with your girlfriend instead of studying). Another reason might be birth control (ironic, uh?), seeing how sex is the biggest taboo of our society and seeing how it is demonized by (especially abrahamic) religions.

Still, those reasons do not completely fulfill my original question. There must be something deeper beyond negation of physical pleasure, let's discuss this here together!

I think it is basically a control issue. People who allow themselves to indulge in earthly pleasures are probably harder to contain.

That sounds negative but it probably isn't in its entirety. Anything done to excess is bad for you and some pleasures probably are best avoided. I have heard, for example, that taking heroin is like having an 8 hour orgasm. That may be true but there are obvious side affects associated with becoming a heroin addict. The same thing applies to all the other hard drugs, alcohol included - so it isn't just the illegality that is the problem.

Further, if you do aspire to be a culture that values marriage then encouraging the ideal of fidelity probably does help in keeping families together - although to a somewhat limited degree in our culture judging by the preponderance of infidelity and divorce.

Having said all of that - as an atheist who has been with his wife 30 years come January, faithfully, I remain to be convinced that religion actually has much of a role to play.

(July 27, 2013 at 1:17 am)oukoida Wrote: It all stems from this:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-20055-page-4.html

After some discussion, someone pointed out:

Quote: atheists are people who rather dwell on the simple pleasures of life. They are not bothered with anything else, and they disregard any other notions around them.

But, it is also true that

Quote: [to] other atheists, examining those "other notions" happen to be a part of those pleasures that we enjoy. Intellectual pleasure is still pleasure.

Now, after reading this, a question came into my mind: what is the point for religions in negating earthly pleasure?
I think one reason is that earthly pleasure means simple distraction from intellectual activities (like, say, going out with your girlfriend instead of studying). Another reason might be birth control (ironic, uh?), seeing how sex is the biggest taboo of our society and seeing how it is demonized by (especially abrahamic) religions.

Still, those reasons do not completely fulfill my original question. There must be something deeper beyond negation of physical pleasure, let's discuss this here together!

"For centuries, the mystics of spirit had existed by running a protection racket - by making life on earth unbearable, then charging you for consolation and relief, by forbidding all the virtues that make existence possible, then riding on the shoulders of your guilt, by declaring production and joy to be sins, then collecting blackmail from the sinners." - Ayn Rand

That pretty much says it all.

(July 27, 2013 at 1:39 am)genkaus Wrote: "For centuries, the mystics of spirit had existed by running a protection racket - by making life on earth unbearable, then charging you for consolation and relief, by forbidding all the virtues that make existence possible, then riding on the shoulders of your guilt, by declaring production and joy to be sins, then collecting blackmail from the sinners." - Ayn Rand

That pretty much says it all.

Before now I never considered goat herders to be venture capitalists.

(July 27, 2013 at 1:47 am)cato123 Wrote: Before now I never considered goat herders to be venture capitalists.

Sounds a bit like Pat Robertson.

I have a hard time understanding why pleasure is wrong (unless you're a sadist taking pleasure in hurting people, who aren't consenting). I think the religious basis of not viewing pleasure in a positive way, is because if your earthly life is filled with pleasure and goodness, who would need a heaven? It might be also about that without strife and adversity you can't be tested by your gods and never prove that you are worthy and strong enough to get through hardship and thus earn your way to the perfect paradise after life. Then there is of course the stigma associated with certain pleasures, which stem both from culture and religion, e.g. promiscuity, and substance use.

As it was said already, everything in moderation. A pleased person is a happy person and happy people are more productive and pleasing to be around.

(July 27, 2013 at 2:31 am)Kayenneh Wrote: I have a hard time understanding why pleasure is wrong (unless you're a sadist taking pleasure in hurting people, who aren't consenting). I think the religious basis of not viewing pleasure in a positive way, is because if your earthly life is filled with pleasure and goodness, who would need a heaven? It might be also about that without strife and adversity you can't be tested by your gods and never prove that you are worthy and strong enough to get through hardship and thus earn your way to the perfect paradise after life. Then there is of course the stigma associated with certain pleasures, which stem both from culture and religion, e.g. promiscuity, and substance use.

As it was said already, everything in moderation. A pleased person is a happy person and happy people are more productive and pleasing to be around.

What makes you believe Christians do not enjoy pleasure, we do as long as it's not sinful pleasure. Read the book Song of Solomon in the Bible, I would suggest something other than the King James. We also and firstly receive pleasure serving God, we enjoy living life, we enjoy serving others. Going on bike trips and white water kayaking (use to be one of my favorites until I hurt my back), I can still canoe on calmer waters. I tournament fished for many years, I still hunt and do wood work. I know many Christians that are very active in things like marathon runs, hiking and ect. We do not find pleasure in the things we consider sinful, it bothers us to do so, in other words it makes us feel bad thus no real pleasure.

One would be hard pressed to find anything that is not considered sinful by theists.

(July 27, 2013 at 3:06 am)Godschild Wrote: We do not find pleasure in the things we consider sinful, it bothers us to do so, in other words it makes us feel bad thus no real pleasure.

The problem with the concept of "sin" to me is that it is not a personal concept but is collectively imposed on the entire group (religion), and then far too often the group starts to impose it on outsiders as well.

Basically: Feel free not to fuck someone of the same sex if you feel homosexuality isn't for you, but don't you dare ever to tell any of my gay friends that they're going to hell for their "sin"!

Godschild Wrote:What makes you believe Christians do not enjoy pleasure

Firstly, fuck you, you self-important cunt! I was talking about religions as a whole, not only your particular brand of cuckoo.
Secondly, with that humongous stick up your ass, it's hard to imagine that you don't get any pleasure from it, since you've yet to pull it out.

Quote:we do as long as it's not sinful pleasure.

You can shove your sin where the stars don't shine! Oh, I forgot, the stick is in the way.

Quote:Read the book Song of Solomon in the Bible

I've done it a long time ago.

Quote:We do not find pleasure in the things we consider sinful, it bothers us to do so, in other words it makes us feel bad thus no real pleasure.

Sin is all in your mind and if you chose to limit yourself that way, be my guest. Just stay out of others' pleasures when it's not your business.