(July 30, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(July 30, 2013 at 4:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: To let them know they're cared for, to give comfort, to let them know they are not alone in their problem no matter what it is.

And sometimes to make yourself feel superior...don't forget that one.

That might be your motive if you were a Christian, however that's not how it works in Christianity or with God, God listens to sincere pray, He has no use for hypocrisy.
Why do atheist believe that hypocrisy is a part of Christianity when Jesus spoke severely against it. I do not doubt that some Christians do that, but its not part of Christianity, as I said God has no use for it and if that's the reason for one's prayers then one should not expect an answer. Being a conscientious Christian helps others.
Why is it when someone is sincere in an answer people like you have to be arrogant, is it a habit or do you love being that way?

Quote:Now that the resident know-it-alls have given their wise answers, maybe the Christians here can get a word in, being that you did ask us.

Well, I asked all theists, I didn't specify Christians, but I take your point.

Quote:It wasn't that obvious to our know-it alls, I'm pretty sure they believe their experts on this subject, enough of that I'll try and give you an answer.

Okey-dokey.

Quote:I pray to grow in a relationship with God, just as you talk to your friends to gain a stronger relationship.

The two cases are in no wise parallel. My friends don't know everything about me, whereas God MUST know everything about you (by definition). Relationships are two-way streets. Your God may give to you, but there is - literally - nothing you can give to God. A relationship between the God of Abraham and a human being is, of necessity, a stagnant one. No 'growth' is possible.

Quote:I ask questions of Him about the Bible and many subjects to gain wisdom about things I do not understand growing in a relationship with a teacher.

But this is a form of intercessory prayer, isn't it? You are asking God to give you something (understanding) he hasn't given you already. If he does, then you've managed to get an immutable Being to alter his plans. If he doesn't, then your prayer was ineffectual.

Quote:I ask deeper spiritual questions to grow closer to God. I ask that He would help me in problems I run into in life. growing with a mentor.

Same answer with this addendum: Why ask God for help with your problems? Your lot like to go on about the value of faith. Where is your faith that your probloems are good for you? In other words, how can you possibly know that God doesn't WANT you to have these problems?

Quote: There are countless reasons to pray, to show thankfulness for His provisions.

What is the point of thanking God for anything, though? Since God cannot act in a manner foreign to his nature, then it was simply fated that you got these provisions, wasn't it?

Quote:Think of it this way, your friend gives you a nice gift you open it up and then walk away with no emotions shown or words said, think the friend might feel you are not appreciative. Your friend knew you would be pleased with the gift, it's your friend and friends know what will make friends pleased.

Leaving aside the unalterable fact that we've all gotten crap gifts from friends, the cases are (again) not parallel. Naturally, I would thank a friend for a gift, freely given. But what would be the point of thanking a friend who had no choice BUT to give me a gift? That would be like thanking someone for being left-handed, or for being six feet tall.

Quote:God's ultimate will can not be changed, but the lives within that will can have changes to them as long as it does not interfere with God's ultimate will. Healing, financial help, safety, relationships and other things can and are changed as long as it doesn't interfere with His ultimate will. God has not planed out every second of your life nor mine, He leaves us with many choices, he does have plans for our lives and some choose to be consumed in that plan, but most Christians do not and we have that choice.

The trouble with that is is that you cannot possibly know what God's plans are for you, which brings us right back to the futility of prayer. Suppose you (or a loved one, I don't wish to accuse you of being selfish) were desperately, deathly ill. You pray that God heal you. Where did you get the sure and certain knowledge that it isn't God's plan for you to die of this particular disease at this particular time?

[/quote]To show you God has not set your life or mine to a time table that can't be changed, God says children obey your parents and your days may be prolonged, I'd have to look it up but i'm pretty sure there's verses that speak of fools shortening their lives.

Quote:God also says that disobediant children are to be killed, which makes your verse sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I pray to praise God and show my respect, what I wonder is why you would think praying is a waste of time, just because God knows everything that will happen in our lives doesn't mean He doesn't want to communicate with us or help us.

Quote:That's EXACTLY why I think prayer is a waste of time - God already knows what will happen in your life, so what is the point of trying to get him to change it?

Again, you can't possible know what God wants. For all you know, he may want to be ignored.

Boru

(July 29, 2013 at 5:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why do you pray? (This is mainly for the theists, obviously.)

It seems to me that prayer, broadly speaking, falls into two general catagories: intercessory prayer (where you ask God to effect a change for you or for someone else) and supplicatory prayer (where you tell God how wonderful he is, or how thankful you are, or some such).

Why bother? If everything which happens is according to God's plan (or God's will, or Divine Providence, or whatever the current buzzword is), then an intercessory prayer cannot possible affect the outcome - what is going to happen has been decided already by God. Furthermore (apos to Ambrose Bierce), isn't it rather arrogant of you to ask God to alter his plans on your behalf, when you've already admitted that you're unworthy to have him do so?

And, since God is omniscient, he already knows that's he terrific and how thankful you are - why do you need to tell him? Seems kind of like if every passenger were to walk up to the bus conductor every two seconds and tell him, 'This is the Number 4 bus.'

That in mind, what is the point of prayer?

Boru

Well, from which perspective do you ask?
From a Christian perspective, I believe that it is a way for you to communicate with God. YOU. He on the other hand can contact you if he wants to, but you ought to contact him in order to ask for something in particular(help, forgiveness and etc.) in your private time, with either vocalising your prayer, or simply "thinking of it", with the intent of making it a prayer. I might be wrong though, for different Christian denominations have different forms of prayers, some have incantations and set forms of prayers, while some don't.

Speaking for Islam, prayer(Salat) is an obligation. You have to pray five times a day. It's a commandment. There is some symbolism in it, though mostly, it is done because it has been commanded by God. It's best when it's done with the community in a mosque, headed by an imam. It gives the moslems a chance to feel the brotherly relation that moslems share with eachother. They stand side by side while performing the same actions, together in unison, leading to a collective form of action.
But first and foremost of all, you do it for yourself. As you are, by your birth, indebted to God, you must spend the minimum amount in a day, praising his name, giving thanks, and uttering blessings to this prophet and his family.
Since it's obligatory, not doing it is a sin.

(July 30, 2013 at 5:27 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 30, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote: And sometimes to make yourself feel superior...don't forget that one.

That might be your motive if you were a Christian, however that's not how it works in Christianity or with God, God listens to sincere pray, He has no use for hypocrisy.
Why do atheist believe that hypocrisy is a part of Christianity when Jesus spoke severely against it. I do not doubt that some Christians do that, but its not part of Christianity, as I said God has no use for it and if that's the reason for one's prayers then one should not expect an answer. Being a conscientious Christian helps others.
Why is it when someone is sincere in an answer people like you have to be arrogant, is it a habit or do you love being that way?

I don't necessarily doubt your sincerity, just your ability to answer for the whole of Christendom. The question you highlighted and answered was why you need to tell others you will pray for them, not why you pray. Arguably subtle difference, maybe, except often the compulsion to tell someone this is as a slur. Doesn't matter if you like the reasoning, it happens.

Oh, raised a Christian, I suppose the arrogance is habit.

I'm physically handicapped, missing nine of my ten fingers. I was in the store one day, minding my own business, and a pair of young men came up to me. They said, "We saw your handicap and were moved by your plight. Would you like us to pray for you?" I'm like, "No. Fuck off." I didn't say the fuck off part, but I sure thought it. Christians aren't content with themselves unless they're putting their religion in your face. It's why people like GC are here. Do you think GC desires your company because he thinks atheists are good and interesting people? Fuck no, most of the theists on this forum are all about putting their business up in yours. That's all it is.

GC, I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to pray like the Pharisees, that is, to pray out in the open. That being said, you just admitted to telling people that you will pray for them. Well, if you are Christian, isn't the praying thing implied, and if you followed Christ's teachings, then you would pray in secret, not letting them know that you are doing so? Praying in the open is hypocritical; this is what gives us the grounds to call you hypocrites...but this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Fuck me. I just posted something on another thread (Did they not pray hard enough), that should have gone here.

(July 30, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(July 30, 2013 at 4:30 pm)Walking Void Wrote: It keeps your hands slightly warm.

I play pocket pool to do the same.

Indeed. I can think of several ways of keeping your hands warm, and all of them vastly more interesting and productive than praying.

GC Wrote:I pray to grow in a relationship with God, just as you talk to your friends to gain a stronger relationship.

BSB4 Wrote:The two cases are in no wise parallel. My friends don't know everything about me, whereas God MUST know everything about you (by definition).

I know very little about God, that's why I pray, so He'll teach me more about Him so I can grow closer to Him. This is what I stated above in bold. Yes, God knows everything about me, that makes Him a perfect teacher.

BSB4 Wrote:Relationships are two-way streets. Your God may give to you, but there is - literally - nothing you can give to God. A relationship between the God of Abraham and a human being is, of necessity, a stagnant one. No 'growth' is possible.

Surely you didn't say that. I give God the only things He desires from me, love and obedience, this is most pleasing to God. God gives me more than I can ever know to help me grow closer to Him. This is a two-way relationship and growth is not only possible it is on going.

GC Wrote:I ask questions of Him about the Bible and many subjects to gain wisdom about things I do not understand growing in a relationship with a teacher.

BSB4 Wrote:But this is a form of intercessory prayer, isn't it? You are asking God to give you something (understanding) he hasn't given you already. If he does, then you've managed to get an immutable Being to alter his plans. If he doesn't, then your prayer was ineffectual.

Intercessory prayer, how is praying for understanding for myself praying for another. God is immutable, He himself never changes, however not all of His plans are set in stone, the scriptures show us places where God has change His mind and He offered to change His mind if the Israelites would turn from sin and return to Him. Your understanding of who God is, is very limited.

GC Wrote:I ask deeper spiritual questions to grow closer to God. I ask that He would help me in problems I run into in life, growing with a mentor.

BSB4 Wrote:Same answer with this addendum: Why ask God for help with your problems? Your lot like to go on about the value of faith. Where is your faith that your probloems are good for you? In other words, how can you possibly know that God doesn't WANT you to have these problems?

Why be prideful and not ask God for help? Faith has tremendous value for Christians, faith can release the power of God through prayer to help people. God may be using some problems to actually help me to grow, I want know unless I talk to Him.

GC Wrote:There are countless reasons to pray, to show thankfulness for His provisions.

BSB4 Wrote:What is the point of thanking God for anything, though? Since God cannot act in a manner foreign to his nature, then it was simply fated that you got these provisions, wasn't it?

I thank God to show my appreciation for what He does for me, why do you thank people. No it's not fate, and God does not act contrary to His nature, He is loving and desires to give to His children and if I was not to ask for certain things (knowledge and so forth) I would not necessarily receive them.

GC Wrote:Think of it this way, your friend gives you a nice gift you open it up and then walk away with no emotions shown or words said, think the friend might feel you are not appreciative. Your friend knew you would be pleased with the gift, it's your friend and friends know what will make friends pleased.

BSB4 Wrote:... the cases are (again) not parallel. Naturally, I would thank a friend for a gift, freely given. But what would be the point of thanking a friend who had no choice BUT to give me a gift? That would be like thanking someone for being left-handed, or for being six feet tall.

Naturally I thank God for His gifts, whether asked for or given freely, it would be a terrible thing not to, He is my friend after all. God doesn't have to give me or you anything, that's what grace is all about, we receive even though we are not worthy of the gift. Of coarse you will come back with why do we have to be worthy of a gift. I'm going to say to you once again "grace." We do not need to be worthy.

GC Wrote:God's ultimate will can not be changed, but the lives within that will can have changes to them as long as it does not interfere with God's ultimate will. Healing, financial help, safety, relationships and other things can and are changed as long as it doesn't interfere with His ultimate will. God has not planed out every second of your life nor mine, He leaves us with many choices, he does have plans for our lives and some choose to be consumed in that plan, but most Christians do not and we have that choice.

BSB4 Wrote:The trouble with that is is that you cannot possibly know what God's plans are for you, which brings us right back to the futility of prayer.

Like I said earlier, there are countless reasons to pray, and this is one of those, I pray to find out what God's will ie. plan is for my life. Just because as a Christian you did not experience God working in your life, doesn't mean others have not had such experiences. My life with God doesn't have to resemble your's and I'm actually glad for me and sad for you. There's no futility in prayer when one uses it in the correct way, prayer becomes a natural part of life that enlightens one to God and His desires, plans and will.

BSB4 Wrote:Suppose you (or a loved one, I don't wish to accuse you of being selfish) were desperately, deathly ill. You pray that God heal you. Where did you get the sure and certain knowledge that it isn't God's plan for you to die of this particular disease at this particular time?

Easy, my death or the death of a loved one. True situation, my father was seriously ill and I did not know if he would recover or not, but my thoughts were he wouldn't. I asked God if He was not going to heal dad to take him home and not let him suffer in his death. This was prayed in all sincerity.

GC Wrote:To show you God has not set your life or mine to a time table that can't be changed, God says children obey your parents and your days may be prolonged, I'd have to look it up but i'm pretty sure there's verses that speak of fools shortening their lives.

BSB4 Wrote:God also says that disobediant children are to be killed, which makes your verse sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you must bring up the verses, they a not about a child, they are actually about adults, please just think about the verses and I bet you will see. They have been explained a number of times here by the Christians.

GC Wrote:I pray to praise God and show my respect, what I wonder is why you would think praying is a waste of time, just because God knows everything that will happen in our lives doesn't mean He doesn't want to communicate with us or help us.

BSB4 Wrote:That's EXACTLY why I think prayer is a waste of time - God already knows what will happen in your life, so what is the point of trying to get him to change it?

Again, you can't possible know what God wants. For all you know, he may want to be ignored.

Boru

Why, because I do not know what's going to happen and if prayer can help change things and it does, I'm going to pray. However I have to remember that changing things is God's decision and I need to be faithful and accept the answers, God is the omniscient one who knows best.

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(July 30, 2013 at 7:42 pm)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(July 30, 2013 at 5:27 pm)Godschild Wrote: That might be your motive if you were a Christian, however that's not how it works in Christianity or with God, God listens to sincere pray, He has no use for hypocrisy.
Why do atheist believe that hypocrisy is a part of Christianity when Jesus spoke severely against it. I do not doubt that some Christians do that, but its not part of Christianity, as I said God has no use for it and if that's the reason for one's prayers then one should not expect an answer. Being a conscientious Christian helps others.
Why is it when someone is sincere in an answer people like you have to be arrogant, is it a habit or do you love being that way?

I don't necessarily doubt your sincerity, just your ability to answer for the whole of Christendom. The question you highlighted and answered was why you need to tell others you will pray for them, not why you pray. Arguably subtle difference, maybe, except often the compulsion to tell someone this is as a slur. Doesn't matter if you like the reasoning, it happens.

Oh, raised a Christian, I suppose the arrogance is habit.

I'm not answering for all Christians. I do not always tell others I'm praying for them, especially if they are not believers. I do tell a lot of people and Christians I'm praying for them so they will know that someone else is concerned about them, for me personally I do not need to tell anyone. The need lies with those who I believe are in need of comforting words and encouragement. If someone asks me not to pray for them I'll say okay, but I will anyway. Another reason I find a need to pray for others is simple, God moves me to.
If you got arrogance from being a Christian then I can understand why you left, I know that you did not get that arrogance from the scriptures. Thus arrogance is not part of Biblical teaching, and should not be a part of Christians lives.

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(July 30, 2013 at 8:15 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: GC, I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to pray like the Pharisees, that is, to pray out in the open. That being said, you just admitted to telling people that you will pray for them. Well, if you are Christian, isn't the praying thing implied, and if you followed Christ's teachings, then you would pray in secret, not letting them know that you are doing so? Praying in the open is hypocritical; this is what gives us the grounds to call you hypocrites...but this is just the tip of the iceberg.

When Jesus was teaching the lesson about praying He was talking only about the arrogance of the one pharisee as the example. So it was not the pharisees He was necessarily teaching against, it was arrogance and hypocrisy in prayer. Christ did not teach to always hide in a closet to pray, praying by one's self is to have no disruption and draw close to God while praying, one can experience God during pray, but a disruption can break your thoughts and experience with God.

The teaching of the closet is to show one that we're to be humble and selfless in prayers, our asking should be in concern for the Kingdom of God ie. His church. Praying in public is not hypocritical, praying as a hypocrite is being hypocritical, whether you're in a closet or in a public place. I know what you're after, you do not like seeing Christians praying in a restaurant, God ask that we give thanks for our food, so we do. I'm sorry if it bothers you, the bad language I hear from others bothers me and unless it gets out of hand I try and ignore it.

You mean you let magical four-letter words ruin your day sometimes?

Jesus praying in the open is hypocritical of his own teaching. This book is dumb.