(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

Okay, you vote on homosexuality, and we'll vote on whether your vote matters. I vote "no," since denying other people their free will as a Christian counts as hypocrisy as well as showing a lack of faith in God's ability to make and judge His own without your help.

Godschild Wrote:This subject is a hot bed of disagreement and until both sides sit down and peacefully try and draw sensible conclusions to this it will remain so, hate and anger have never solved a problem, only increased the misunderstandings of both sides.

There's nothing to debate because there is only one sensible conclusion: live your own life according to scripture, stay out of everybody else's life. As long as you believe you have the right to force other people to live according to your preferences, there is no room for discussion and no reason to treat you as anything except a backwards and hateful hick.

(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Science already worked it out, but thanks for the FYI. And why do we need to sit down and come to some middle ground with Christians? It's called Separation of Church and State. You can disagree with homosexuality for unfounded reasons all you want, but you have no right to tell them they can't get married under secular law. It's amazing that people are finally coming to this realization.

Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

Voting against it potentially changes the law from secular to religious. As far as the concept of Separation of Church and State is concerned, you really don't have any right. Do you have any secular motives to vote against it? If so, then I'm all ears.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: As for what scripture says (ie. God), the act of same gender sex is not natural and is to be refrained from completely. I do not know anywhere in scripture that says some people are or are not born with an attraction to the same gender, as far as I know the scriptures are neutral on this. It however is not neutral on the act of homosexuality in any form. Scriptures do not speak against the gays not having rights, it speaks against gays having the right to marry and act physically upon their feelings. So I would believe that gays having rights as married couples is scripturally wrong. Thus the reason most Christians are opposed to those rights and it is our right to choose to oppose those rights according to our Constitution. To deny a gay person the rights as an individual is wrong as long as the community says it's okay, and scripture does not speak against it, this should be a Christians stance. This subject is a hot bed of disagreement and until both sides sit down and peacefully try and draw sensible conclusions to this it will remain so, hate and anger have never solved a problem, only increased the misunderstandings of both sides.

Sensible conclusions? There can be none as long as your side continues to with this irrational position. Regardless the immorality of telling someone that it is wrong to act according to one's nature, there is no justification for denying them their individual rights. A person's individual rights and their limitations are determined by the nature of his being, not by community's say so. And therefore, it is not acceptable to deny them those rights even if the community says it's okay.

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(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

This subject should not be open to vote, constitutionally speaking. Certain fundamental aspects of the constitution are not open to change via popular vote - which is why the courts have the right to strike down certain changes as unconstitutional - and this subject should be considered as one of them.

(August 19, 2013 at 6:24 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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A study of identical twins show that around 40% of sets are split, one is gay and the other is not. So to some degree there is a question of genetics, to what degree I do not believe has been determined. This could point to the way a person perceives things as they grow up, thus a choice to be gay or not to be gay. Then maybe identical twins are not as identical as thought to be and some people are born to be attracted to the same gender and others are not. This is all for science to work out some day.

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If it is a matter of genetics then it is not a matter of choice. As you yourself seem to say, there is a difference between being gay (i.e., being born desiring sex and love relationships with people of the same sex) and choosing to engage in homosexual acts. What needs to be emphasized here is that the person whose being is disposed toward finding intimate happiness with people of the same sex are sacrificing enormously if they choose not to fulfill their inborn desires whereas it costs you or I absolutely nothing.

I do not know if it's genetic or not, but I agree if it is genetic then gays have no choice in who they are, they do posses the choice of acting upon their desires, just as heterosexuals have a choice to engage in sex before marriage.
It's not our fault gays find themselves in the position of being gay, so I will not let guilt be a guide, that would be dishonest. The gays who decide to be Christians are to withhold their desires according to scripture, actually Scripture calls for all gays to withhold their desires. I'm stating this from the view of genetics.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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As for what scripture says (ie. God), the act of same gender sex is not natural and is to be refrained from completely. I do not know anywhere in scripture that says some people are or are not born with an attraction to the same gender, as far as I know the scriptures are neutral on this. It however is not neutral on the act of homosexuality in any form.

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Quote:Trust me, no one here much cares what the bible has to say on the subject.

I know that! I do however and I'm stating what I believe and will conduct my life by what it says.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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Scriptures do not speak against the gays not having rights, it speaks against gays having the right to marry and act physically upon their feelings. So I would believe that gays having rights as married couples is scripturally wrong. Thus the reason most Christians are opposed to those rights and it is our right to choose to oppose those rights according to our Constitution.

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Quote:But when you act collectively in the political realm to foist laws on everyone using as a rationale what it says in the bible, you turn ordinary non-theists into anti-thesists. If your bible motivates you to ban gay marriage then you had better be prepared to justify that in secular terms. The bible-says-so will not suffice as a reason. I have no qualms with your beliefs until you try to impose them on the rest of us. Then you motivate me to not only push back on that issue but to do everything in my power to destroy the root cause.

So, it's okay to be a Christian just do not believe in what it stands for, is this the way religion's suppose to be treated in the U.S. Is this what you are stating, 'you can have all the religion you want in this country it's your constitutional right, but you can not express what you believe to be true.' Sounds like a sweet deal for you and your ilk. You have no qualms with Christians as long as they stay in their place keeping their opinions and speech to themselves, this what you call a free society, freedom is okay as long as it doesn't infringe on your beliefs, this what you desire. Well I can get motivated myself when pushed, you have no right to say how I can vote on issues and you will not push your beliefs on me and those who stand with God.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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To deny a gay person the rights as an individual is wrong as long as the community says it's okay, and scripture does not speak against it, this should be a Christians stance. This subject is a hot bed of disagreement and until both sides sit down and peacefully try and draw sensible conclusions to this it will remain so, hate and anger have never solved a problem, only increased the misunderstandings of both sides.

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GC

Quote:I think you mean Christians should be okay with extending equal rights to gays when that is the law of the land no matter whether you think the bible tells you as Christians to live otherwise. That is a sensible position although it is still inhumane to the gay children taught to hate themselves who grow up in Christian families. But if you think that arguing from the bible is a rationale for political action you will simply motivate your enemies.

I'm saying Christians should uphold the laws of the land as long as they do not go against God's law. I do not agree with abortion and never will, I consider it murder, that's why I do not want it federally funded. There's nothing at this time I can do about the law, but I can vote for those who oppose federally funding abortion and that my friend is my constitutional right. I can't help how others raise their children and I do not believe anyone has the right to interfere unless the child's physical life is in danger. As far as motivating my enemies, I've never seen an enemy that needed to be motivated. Those who see themselves as enemies will go against anything their opposites stand for. I'm not trying to be anyone's enemy, I will speak up for what I believe and stand firmly until otherwise convinced. I can argue from nature as well, but I'll stay away from that for now.

GC

Whoa whoa whoa... federally funded abortion? We're talking about homosexuality here, and we've digressed to same-sex marriage. I'll ask again: Why would you vote against same-sex marriage? How does anyone's marriage affect you?

(August 19, 2013 at 9:23 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

Okay, you vote on homosexuality, and we'll vote on whether your vote matters. I vote "no," since denying other people their free will as a Christian counts as hypocrisy as well as showing a lack of faith in God's ability to make and judge His own without your help.

If I make a stand for or stay neutral on homosexual marriage I take a stand against God. You completely misunderstand the free will given to a person by God. Making a stand against God is not how Christianity nor free will works, I suggest you read the Bible and specifically look for all verses that pertain to free will. You are not the dictator of the U.S., and until you are I will vote my beliefs as my Constitution gives me the right. Why are you so bigoted against Christians right to speak for what they see as good for society.

GC

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(August 19, 2013 at 11:21 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... federally funded abortion? We're talking about homosexuality here, and we've digressed to same-sex marriage. I'll ask again: Why would you vote against same-sex marriage? How does anyone's marriage affect you?

Let's not digress any farther then.

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(August 19, 2013 at 11:03 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

This subject should not be open to vote, constitutionally speaking. Certain fundamental aspects of the constitution are not open to change via popular vote - which is why the courts have the right to strike down certain changes as unconstitutional - and this subject should be considered as one of them.

I agree it should not, but the gay community is pushing for the vote and the court has no right to make constitutional law.

GC

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(August 19, 2013 at 9:47 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

Voting against it potentially changes the law from secular to religious. As far as the concept of Separation of Church and State is concerned, you really don't have any right. Do you have any secular motives to vote against it? If so, then I'm all ears.

No it does not, I have the right to vote on anything from my POV and you have no right to keep me from it, so I will continue to vote as I see fit. The separation of church and state guarantees me that the state will not interfere in the way I vote. If you do not believe this then you might as well through out separation of church and state, because Thomas Jefferson upheld both of these beliefs.

GC

(August 19, 2013 at 11:29 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 11:21 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Whoa whoa whoa... federally funded abortion? We're talking about homosexuality here, and we've digressed to same-sex marriage. I'll ask again: Why would you vote against same-sex marriage? How does anyone's marriage affect you?

Let's not digress any farther then.

No, let's do. I've asked you twice now. If you're voting against marriage equality, you must have your reasons and I would love to hear them. How does anyone's marriage, other than your own, affect you? (Third time)

(August 19, 2013 at 11:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: I do not know if it's genetic or not, ... I'm stating this from the view of genetics.

GC,
Does this mean you don't know what you are talking about? Or, in the midst of your rambling you came to an understanding?

Mods,
I used ellipsis for efficiency, not to use GC's words in a nefarious way. In fact, his position is further compomised if I had repeated the quote in its entirety.

GC,
Still thiking? Don't hurt yourself. You and I know damn well that your intollerance for those not like you is based on the words of an ancient text, buttressed by self-annointed spokesman whom won't be challenged by the flock.

Well then, GC, impose your bigoted beliefs on people because I'm sure that's what Thomas Jefferson intended to happen.