Quote:Magick is where you attempt to invoke God or some other supernatural being to bring some form of change into the physical universe through elaborate rituals and incantations and such.

Your godboy does not agree with you.

Quote:And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Luke 17-6

(August 22, 2013 at 11:44 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 10:19 am)discipulus Wrote: Is that all? Or are there more requirements?

Of course there are more, but that first step is too high a barrier of entry for god.

Jesus of Nazareth who is called the Christ is a person. He is also God incarnate so I do not understand what you mean by the barrier is too high.

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(August 22, 2013 at 1:58 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 10:19 am)discipulus Wrote: I don't understand what you are asking me to do.

I'm asking you how you are communicating with god and how you know that it is god you are communicating with.

I know I am communing with God when I pray because through faith and obedience, I have over a period of time cultivated a relationship with Jesus Christ and I know His voice. Kind of like how you know your brothers voice or your fathers voice because over time you have heard it and know what it is like and the kinds of things they say.

In the same way, when I pray and when God speaks to me it is not with an audible voice but rather an impression or a sense that only the spiritual regenerated man possesses. It is by grace through faith and this not of myself but rather the gift from God.

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: When these and many, many other superstitious rituals are assessed critically, we find that the results of them are indistinguishable from blind chance. Realising they are imaginary doesn't stop people from doing them. It doesn't even slow them down.

If you're talking about prayer it does very definitely have a direct physical effect on an individual than science can observe certainly, it isn't some kind of a superstition. They have been studies on the brain scans of someone in prayer. What tends to be stimulated here are the regions of the brain associated with consciousness such as the temporal lobes and the areas of the brain associated with bodily and spacial awareness begin to shut down. It's somewhat similar to Buddhist mediation as well there is something called contemplative prayer in Christianity which runs along very similar lines. The main difference is that the aim is to partake of God as a distinct separate entity to yourself rather than merge into him and become part of God yourself. Only one man in Christianity was a part of God as you know.

If two people practice self flagellation, one a Christian, the other a masochist, both will have physical evidence all can see. (Scarring.) This doesn't give any credence that their motivations are sound, however. Hell, a human body registers a physical response to fear, real and imagined. I don't see, say hyperventilation, used as a proof of ghosts, do you?

You'll need more than brain scans to convince a skeptic of the validity of prayer.

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(August 22, 2013 at 5:59 pm)discipulus Wrote: [quote='Esquilax' pid='496565' dateline='1377186262']

Of course there are more, but that first step is too high a barrier of entry for god.

Quote:Jesus of Nazareth who is called the Christ is a person. He is also God incarnate so I do not understand what you mean by the barrier is too high.

Now I see why you prefer to just regurgitate questions. Your answers are weak.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: There is such a thing as "petitionary prayer" but that tends to involve asking God to grant you the strength to do/not do something, strength to endure some kind of misfortune and so on. But prayer does have a real demonstrable physiological effect some kind it's certainly not "imaginary" as you claim. If were just imaginary I should think people would have realized this and stopped doing it thousands of years ago.

If I tell you that there's a bug going around in your office and its first symptom is an upset stomach, you will have a stomach ache in no time, even if you don't have the bug.

Prayer has psychological effects. But there is no God that answers their prayers and makes a physical change. Any changes brought on physically are by the person who prayed...and this is caused by the psychological effects of prayer.

(August 22, 2013 at 3:14 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:24 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Why do you give humanity that much credit?

Humanity being made in Gods image has a lot going for it. It's a much more positive view of humanity than the other alternative imo. Though I'm not saying believe anything you like as long as it's comforting, C.S Lewis said that all you would ultimately get from this approach is "soft soap and ultimately despair". So what matters is what you think is true.

What makes your god positive?

And I think WHY someone believes they have the 'truth' is more important.

(August 22, 2013 at 5:59 pm)discipulus Wrote: I know I am communing with God when I pray because through faith and obedience, I have over a period of time cultivated a relationship with Jesus Christ and I know His voice. Kind of like how you know your brothers voice or your fathers voice because over time you have heard it and know what it is like and the kinds of things they say.

In the same way, when I pray and when God speaks to me it is not with an audible voice but rather an impression or a sense that only the spiritual regenerated man possesses. It is by grace through faith and this not of myself but rather the gift from God.

Replace "God" with invisible pink unicorn, and see for yourself how crazy you are.

Quote:I have over a period of time cultivated a relationship with Jesus Christ and I know His voice.

Fucking lunatic.

How exactly does one know the voice of Christ? Does it sound anything like Harvey "Scorpius" from FarScape?

Alright Discipilus, myself and maybe others by now would like to see your evidence for proof as the burden is now your own from hearing the words of Jesus.

Please, see a psychiatrist, go to a hospital and get them to scan your brain. Maybe an interested scientist in this certain field would like to conduct tests on You.

Please make your words more than words else they just go to the book of appending stories (stories that get added to a book from being assertive assumptions). Although I would like to sell a fiction fantasy book so if You wish to continue babbling then do so for the sake of adding to a novel in progress.

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Ever seen people throw salt over their shoulder after spilling it? Knock on wood for luck? Carry lucky totems, such as rabbits' feet, four leaf clovers, horse shoes etc? Walk around ladders rather than under them? Cross their fingers?

Superstitions? Sure yes, I don't do anything like that myself. Well ok I may salute the odd magpie to cancel the bad luck but I'm trying to stop myself from doing that. Walking around ladders is a better idea anyway as something could drop onto you or the ladder could collapse with you under it.

Right, so you've found a practical use for the original superstition of not desecrating sacred geometry, or whatever the hell it was (it's late, I'm tired, I have to be up early, then get out of bed, I can't be arsed to look this shit up right now.)

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Read up on how someone else imagines the positions of the planets relative to certain background stars dictates their actions?

Astrology? Horoscopes are a load of cobblers certainly that generally just consists of making a number of general statements that can be apply to anyone. The higher level occult mystical/Kabbalist stuff is interesting though it's all a bit metaphorical and symbolic of inner self than a means of telling the future.

But it's still shit, whatever garnish is put on it. Good; I'm glad we're on the same page up to now.

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: When these and many, many other superstitious rituals are assessed critically, we find that the results of them are indistinguishable from blind chance. Realising they are imaginary doesn't stop people from doing them. It doesn't even slow them down.

If you're talking about prayer it does very definitely have a direct physical effect on an individual than science can observe certainly, it isn't some kind of a superstition.

Here's where the point goes missing. My comparisons were in reply to your observation that people would have stopped doing something proven to be a lie. Clearly, this doesn't happen in the examples I mentioned. The only prayer (nyuk nyuk) for prayer at this point is special pleading.

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: They have been studies on the brain scans of someone in prayer. What tends to be stimulated here are the regions of the brain associated with consciousness such as the temporal lobes and the areas of the brain associated with bodily and spacial awareness begin to shut down.

Brain scans of people engaged in thinking show activity in parts of the brain involved with thinking. Earth shattering.

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: It's somewhat similar to Buddhist mediation as well there is something called contemplative prayer in Christianity which runs along very similar lines. The main difference is that the aim is to partake of God as a distinct separate entity to yourself rather than merge into him and become part of God yourself.

One question: if this stuff is proven as you submit, why aren't all neuroscientists religious?

(August 22, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Only one man in Christianity was a part of God as you know.

No, I don't know. Hey, I guess that's why they call me an atheist!

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That's it, Morpheus has defeated me (and I'm not talking about The Matrix). You may fire when ready.