Like all holy texts, the Christian Holy Bible is open to wide interpretation. Personally, I think the Holy Bible is repulsive, for it is full of animal cruelty, slavery, sexism, and outright hate speech. But Christians would probably say I am misinterpreting it.

So, biases aside, let us discuss God's morality and what he is capable of doing as the supreme being. This is important.

For example, look at the story of Noah's Ark. God supposedly decided to flood the world because of all the corruption going on within humanity. Well, isn't God omniscient? Can't he see into the future? If he knows all and sees all, then I would think God would know beforehand that humans would become evil at some point in their life and would simply make them die if they were to cause trouble in the future. Better yet: If God knew they would become corrupt in the future, then why did he create them to begin with?



But others might say God created free will and the corrupt people who drowned in the flood had deliberately chosen to be bad. Maybe God was just giving the jerks what they deserved.

That raises questions about what exactly God is capable of doing. God obviously can't read your thoughts; he can only punish you if you misbehave. Okay....

This video heckles the Christian God for not doing enough for humanity. In Matthew, Jesus Christ heals a blind man and a man with leprosy. Well...Jesus Christ could have done a lot better. Scientists have cured many more people of leprosy than Christ ever did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3S...5_gSByMyr7

I am also a bit skeptical of Jesus Christ's moral character. Take a look at this passage from Matthew:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Jesus sounds like a jerk in that passage. You have to love him more than your family? You must turn against your family for the sake of Jesus's love?

Anyway, those are some things to think about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT8WATQ6v...5_gSByMyr7

(September 11, 2013 at 4:50 pm)Michael Schubert Wrote: But others might say God created free will and the corrupt people who drowned in the flood had deliberately chosen to be bad. Maybe God was just giving the jerks what they deserved.

Don't forget he killed all the animals too. Did they have free will? I think not.

(September 11, 2013 at 4:50 pm)Michael Schubert Wrote: Like all holy texts, the Christian Holy Bible is open to wide interpretation.

Actually Christianity is the only one open to interpertation. As in those who center their beliefs around Christ have the freedom to believe what they can understand. for the same attonement that covers sin when we willfully disobey, also covers our misinterpertations.

Quote:Personally, I think the Holy Bible is repulsive, for it is full of animal cruelty, slavery, sexism, and outright hate speech. But Christians would probably say I am misinterpreting it.

Actually no. What I would say is so what. Who says our soceitial norms that we can afford today are batter than what those people could do 4000 years ago? Strip away all of the mod/cons, and most of us would be lucky to live in a world like the one the bible tells of.

Example: how do post appoliptic writters invision our future; Mad Max, thunderdome, The Road, The Book of Eli look at their living conditions and honestly ask yourself how does that differ from what Moses lived in? Now ask why is all of that so much worse then anything the bible records?
What is the primary difference between modern 'pop morality' and how Moses could afford to live? It is the mod/cons afford you the luxury to be what you think is 'better.' Take those away and your/our true nature is revealed.

Quote:For example, look at the story of Noah's Ark. God supposedly decided to flood the world because of all the corruption going on within humanity.

Not just humanity, neiphem were also apart of the equasion.

Quote:Well, isn't God omniscient? Can't he see into the future? If he knows all and sees all, then I would think God would know beforehand that humans would become evil at some point in their life and would simply make them die if they were to cause trouble in the future.

Kinda like how He orders Moses to Kill whole tribes/genocide of a given people?

Quote: Better yet: If God knew they would become corrupt in the future, then why did he create them to begin with?

for the remenant that would not be corrupt, and for all of whom they spawn.

Quote:

But others might say God created free will and the corrupt people who drowned in the flood had deliberately chosen to be bad. Maybe God was just giving the jerks what they deserved.

That raises questions about what exactly God is capable of doing. God obviously can't read your thoughts; he can only punish you if you misbehave.

Okay.... how did you come to that conclusion?

Quote:This video heckles the Christian God for not doing enough for humanity. In Matthew, Jesus Christ heals a blind man and a man with leprosy. Well...Jesus Christ could have done a lot better. Scientists have cured many more people of leprosy than Christ ever did.

You do understand the nature and reason for miricals right? It is not to erradicate the affliction, it is to establish that Christ Or the prophet/apstole is indeed who He says He is.

Quote:I am also a bit skeptical of Jesus Christ's moral character. Take a look at this passage from Matthew:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Jesus sounds like a jerk in that passage.

Morality is a crap standard good to measure nothing. In the Link I go in detail, but in short 'morality' is man's current version of a righteousness mixed with a given amount of sin he is willing to live with.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-12306.html

Quote:You have to love him more than your family? You must turn against your family for the sake of Jesus's love?

This is absolutly nothing new. The Command to Love your Lord God with All of your being has Always been in effect. NT or Old.

Quote:Anyway, those are some things to think about.

now what?

Drich, you actually think you wrote something intelligent, don't you?

(September 12, 2013 at 9:14 am)Texas Sailor Wrote:

---

(September 12, 2013 at 9:04 am)Drich Wrote: Actually Christianity is the only one open to interpertation. As in those who center their beliefs around Christ have the freedom to believe what they can understand. for the same attonement that covers sin when we willfully disobey, also covers our misinterpertations.

Actually no. What I would say is so what. Who says our soceitial norms that we can afford today are batter than what those people could do 4000 years ago? Strip away all of the mod/cons, and most of us would be lucky to live in a world like the one the bible tells of.

Example: how do post appoliptic writters invision our future; Mad Max, thunderdome, The Road, The Book of Eli look at their living conditions and honestly ask yourself how does that differ from what Moses lived in? Now ask why is all of that so much worse then anything the bible records?
What is the primary difference between modern 'pop morality' and how Moses could afford to live? It is the mod/cons afford you the luxury to be what you think is 'better.' Take those away and your/our true nature is revealed.

Not just humanity, neiphem were also apart of the equasion.

Kinda like how He orders Moses to Kill whole tribes/genocide of a given people?

for the remenant that would not be corrupt, and for all of whom they spawn.

Okay.... how did you come to that conclusion?

You do understand the nature and reason for miricals right? It is not to erradicate the affliction, it is to establish that Christ Or the prophet/apstole is indeed who He says He is.

Morality is a crap standard good to measure nothing. In the Link I go in detail, but in short 'morality' is man's current version of a righteousness mixed with a given amount of sin he is willing to live with.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-12306.html

This is absolutly nothing new. The Command to Love your Lord God with All of your being has Always been in effect. NT or Old.


now what?

---

Drich, you actually think you wrote something intelligent, don't you?

If I did not then it should be very easy for an intelligent man such as your self to show me the error of my ways.

If it was easy for the intelligent to convince the obstinate, everyone would agree on everything.

(September 12, 2013 at 9:22 am)Drich Wrote:

(September 12, 2013 at 9:14 am)Texas Sailor Wrote:

---

---

Drich, you actually think you wrote something intelligent, don't you?

If I did not then it should be very easy for an intelligent man such as your self to show me the error of my ways.

This is true, and a reasonable person would recognize such errors. You, however, have demonstrated repeatedly that you are irrational and incapable of understanding your errors. You are standing in the middle of trees, you can't see the forest. There is no reasoning with insanity.

---

(September 12, 2013 at 9:04 am)Drich Wrote: You do understand the nature and reason for miricals right? It is not to erradicate the affliction, it is to establish that Christ Or the prophet/apstole is indeed who He says He is.

It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that when we ask you for evidence (miracles as defined by you) you refuse to oblige. You insist that such a thing is not necessary to prove Christ.

Then, you say things like this, you claim they exist, you even went so far as to say the purpose of them is to prove Christ.

Then you should have no problem when we ask you to produce one, or present evidence of one! But...no. Sadly, you dismiss our requests as being unnecessary. Instead, you tell us A/S/K is where we'll find our proof.



You don't understand how this discredits your ability to think critically?

A reasonable person gets this Drich.

(September 12, 2013 at 9:32 am)Texas Sailor Wrote: It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that when we ask you for evidence (miracles as defined by you) you refuse to oblige.

This is what tonus ment about the intellegent trying to teach the obstainent. I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell, My messenger/message account, my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery, my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery, My business, and how it was established, The 25K dollar loan that I got from a stranger that I had only met once before he offered an intrest free loan, and on and on and on... Then I have told you that all of these things are evidence in the full fillment of the promises God makes in the bible. That these things were not just offered to me. they are offered to anyone who will humble himself and A/S/K as out lined in Luke 11.

Quote:You insist that such a thing is not necessary to prove Christ.

Quote:Then, you say things like this, you claim they exist, you even went so far as to say the purpose of them is to prove Christ.

Ok, lets start over.
Christ came to offer a complete form of attonement. In order to do this He had to 'complete the Law.' To Complete the Law He needed to established that He was God, as God can only Compete the Law. To do this He needed to show the He weilded the Power of God. Showing dominance over nature (Calming the storm, water to wine, feeding the 5000, walking on water) Dominance over Death, (Raising the Dead, Raising Himself from the Dead) Dominance over man/health In the healings He performed. Dominance over Satan, as He was able to cast out demons. All of these things established Christ as one who weilds the power and Authority of God. As such He is able shift the focous of righteousness from adhearing to the law, to attonement. Which is what He did.

This subsequently is also the reason the Pharisees who were condemned for comitting Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit said He did His works Not by the Power of the Holy Spirit, but by the power given to Him by satan. They were trying to dismiss all that He did so they would not have to accept the evidence given to them in all that they saw Him do.

Quote:Then you should have no problem when we ask you to produce one, or present evidence of one! But...no. Sadly, you dismiss our requests as being unnecessary.

What is the difference between being obstinate and stupid? How do I tell the difference? From My POV I have been litterally saying that 'we' (Christians) are not the mirical workers. we are the ones who have the miricals performed in our lives. That God the Holy Spirit is the one who has provided these miricals. I go on to say that Jesus in Luke 11 promises us this very same Holy Spirit that has performed said miricals in the Life of Christ and the Apstoles, I even give you examples of miricals performed in my own life (All attributed to the Holy Spirit) And then I tell you the same gift given to me is also offered to each and every one of you, all you have to do is A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11. But what do you here? what you you see? what do you understand?

That I am supposed to be some sort of apstole that can do magic tricks for you and that I will not because of (X) reason you believe.

Again I am only a begger who has found a person giving out bread. I am not the one who bakes it. If you want bread A/S/K as outlined and Luke 11.

Quote:Instead, you tell us A/S/K is where we'll find our proof.

Quote:You don't understand how this discredits your ability to think critically?

Have you not even taken the time to understand the fondation of what is being discussed here? Or do you just take what I have said and tried to make it fit your backwards understanding of Christianity?

The problem with atheist who have spent any time in church , believe that they have a complete understanding of Christianity. When if fact at best they have a sunday school understanding of their specific brand of christianity, and little to no understanding of biblical Christianity, yet they are convinced that they know everything there is to know and ignore 1/2 of what is being said.

Quote:A reasonable person gets this Drich.

And an intelectually honest person takes the time to understand the topic of discussion before he makes a counter point.

(September 12, 2013 at 12:36 pm)Drich Wrote: This is what tonus ment about the intellegent trying to teach the obstainent. I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell, My messenger/message account, my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery, my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery, My business, and how it was established, The 25K dollar loan that I got from a stranger that I had only met once before he offered an intrest free loan, and on and on and on... Then I have told you that all of these things are evidence in the full fillment of the promises God makes in the bible. That these things were not just offered to me. they are offered to anyone who will humble himself and A/S/K as out lined in Luke 11.

You and I have two completely different ideas of what would constitute a miracle. You are much easier to convince. It baffles me that you chalk-up the things you wrote above as miracles.

When I say miracle, I have this definition in mind:

Miracle-an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

None of the things you offered as examples qualify. If you think they do, you are a fool looking to reinforce what you wish to be true.

Your entire response is exactly what I expected you to say. You've offered no clarity to your insanity. You are a fool.

(September 12, 2013 at 12:36 pm)Drich Wrote: I provided you example after example of Miricals performed in my Life; My Trip to Hell

I'm not sure of the details you recount of this, but, the human mind is capable of drastically misinterpreting experiences. It is probable your mind had some sort of experience, but your interpretation is incorrect.

If a Hindu told you, with the same conviction as you have for your experience, that he took a trip to Naraka (Hindu hell), would you be convinced that he was recounting the truth?

Quote:my contraction of HIV/my miraculous recovery

There have been a few cases of natural remissions.

But think about what you're saying. There are a million people dying of AIDS all over Africa every year, and your god has the ability to cure them, but instead he cures one person in a country with advanced medical science?

If this god actually did exist, as a moral person, you should be praying every day that your god reinfects you with AIDS and cures the 1300 that are dying every day in Africa. That's what I would do.

Quote:my wife's 10 year 250 dollar aday addiction to Herion, her "flipped a switch off" non typical recovery

Not typical yes, miracle, no.

My cousin was a heroin addicted prostitute on the streets of Hollywood for almost 10 years. She stopped both behaviors in a single day.

You got nothing special.

Quote:My business, and how it was established, The 25K dollar loan that I got from a stranger that I had only met once before he offered an intrest free loan

Do you believe you are the only person that has ever received a large loan from a stranger? Do you think that every large loan from a stranger is miraculous?

And you wonder why we're not impressed.