(September 21, 2013 at 1:49 pm)John V Wrote: Because there were only two people, there were not given rules against those things, and they didn't do them.

Didn't do them yet. You have no reason to assume they wouldn't commit some sin at some point. The fact of the matter is, they did: they ate the fruit of the tree. The one rule they did have, they broke, and yet you seem to be operating under the idea that they'd never ever break rules that they weren't given, simply because it's convenient for you because you locked yourself into this path by stating earlier that all sins are all unacceptable, always.

(September 21, 2013 at 2:12 pm)gilbertc06 Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 2:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: God worked and works through history, He never intended to change it, He wanted man to, but we did not so He sent His Son into history to redeem man.

GC

Redeem man from what exactly? It obviously can't be things we know of such as illness, murder, etc...

So what exactly did he save us from?

Hitler, oh wait, Po Pot, oh wait, Stalin, oh wait, Dark Ages, oh wait. 9/11, oh wait, Columbine, oh wait, Newtown, oh wait.


Would anyone hire a baby sitter with such a spotty record?

---

(September 21, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 1:49 pm)John V Wrote: Because there were only two people, there were not given rules against those things, and they didn't do them.

Didn't do them yet. You have no reason to assume they wouldn't commit some sin at some point. The fact of the matter is, they did: they ate the fruit of the tree. The one rule they did have, they broke, and yet you seem to be operating under the idea that they'd never ever break rules that they weren't given, simply because it's convenient for you because you locked yourself into this path by stating earlier that all sins are all unacceptable, always.

You stumbled on a great analogy which atheists argue all the time with one word "path".

The theist presumes first and that locks them into a conclusion.

(September 21, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Didn't do them yet. You have no reason to assume they wouldn't commit some sin at some point. The fact of the matter is, they did: they ate the fruit of the tree. The one rule they did have, they broke,

Which brings us full circle to my first post:

(September 21, 2013 at 6:37 am)John V Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 3:58 am)gilbertc06 Wrote: When you look at the old testament god, Lucifer just looks like someone who woke up and fought against oppression and then is vilified. for doing so. Not unlike someone who would go against the status quo and the powers at be today.

Yes, that horrible oppression of being allowed to do anything you want except to eat the fruit of one particular tree.

Quote:and yet you seem to be operating under the idea that they'd never ever break rules that they weren't given, simply because it's convenient for you because you locked yourself into this path by stating earlier that all sins are all unacceptable, always.

No, I'm operating under the idea that it's not oppression to be able to do anything you want to do except eat the fruit of one tree.

(September 21, 2013 at 2:53 pm)John V Wrote: No, I'm operating under the idea that it's not oppression to be able to do anything you want to do except eat the fruit of one tree.

So, your idea of the garden is like this: god tells Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree and presents this as the sole rule, all the while obscuring the host of other rules, his sins, that attract a punishment despite Adam and Eve not knowing they were okay... and your sole justification is that they wouldn't want to do those things anyway. Something you cannot prove, cannot know, and will not admit that you just made up because it's convenient.

"You can do whatever you want, except the things that'll anger me. What things? Oh no, I ain't telling you! Just stay away from my tree!"

And you think this is okay? Would you accept this behavior from anyone else?

(September 21, 2013 at 2:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 2:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: God worked and works through history, He never intended to change it, He wanted man to, but we did not so He sent His Son into history to redeem man.

GC

Bullshit. It was written by ignorant people to lead ignorant people and reflected the culture of that time. Just like for 3,000 years the Egyptians centered their beliefs around worship of the sun as a god.

Prove they were ignorant, please. What qualifications do you have to determine when a person is considered ignorant, or do you proclaim yourself as judge of the ancient people.

GC

---

(September 21, 2013 at 2:12 pm)gilbertc06 Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 2:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: God worked and works through history, He never intended to change it, He wanted man to, but we did not so He sent His Son into history to redeem man.

GC

Redeem man from what exactly? It obviously can't be things we know of such as illness, murder, etc...

So what exactly did he save us from?

He came to redeem us form ourselves ie. sin. He hasn't saved you yet but, for those of us who accept who He is and what He did for us by the grace of God we have His salvation ie. we've been redeemed!

GC

---

(September 21, 2013 at 2:17 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 2:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Bullshit. It was written by ignorant people to lead ignorant people and reflected the culture of that time. Just like for 3,000 years the Egyptians centered their beliefs around worship of the sun as a god.

Brian37 is right, GC. If you study the religions of the world, and not just stay focused on one, you will see that religion is extremely cultural. Look at the Taoists, the Hindus, any Native American religion. The rules and heroes of every religion on Earth are affected immensely by the culture they come from, and not some undeniable source that everyone agrees with. That's why there are 30,000 different forms of Christianity. The only truth they share is that none of them know the truth.

All the denominations that believe Christ is their savior because of who He is and what He did are in agreement.

GC

---

(September 21, 2013 at 2:21 pm)gilbertc06 Wrote:

(September 21, 2013 at 2:17 pm)Beta Ray Bill Wrote: Brian37 is right, GC. If you study the religions of the world, and not just stay focused on one, you will see that religion is extremely cultural. Look at the Taoists, the Hindus, any Native American religion. The rules and heroes of every religion on Earth are affected immensely by the culture they come from, and not some undeniable source that everyone agrees with. That's why there are 30,000 different forms of Christianity. The only truth they share is that none of them know the truth.

Furthermore if you look at religious literature through structuralism you can EASILY see the ideologies that the culture wanted to push for their own agenda.

If there really was an omniscience, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent god then his "word" would neither look nor sound anything like hours.

Why not His word is timeless.

GC

Actually GC thats not true, the JW's do not call Jesus Saviour.
Also GC do you agree with the mormons about jesus leading a ministry in the new world?

There's a lot of fail in GC's post, but the main flaw is that he actually thinks Christians are more or less united. That...made me giggle.

(September 23, 2013 at 12:24 am)Godschild Wrote: Prove they were ignorant, please. What qualifications do you have to determine when a person is considered ignorant, or do you proclaim yourself as judge of the ancient people.

I think it's a safe bet, considering we're talking about a people whose inerrant holy book has been proven demonstrably wrong on many, many points. The kind of guy who honestly thinks that the sun could have been created after night and day? That guy is a dumbass.

(September 23, 2013 at 12:24 am)Godschild Wrote: Prove they were ignorant, please.

The Bible gave very explicit instructions regarding the nature and cure for leprosy. Neither was true. Does this satisfy your desire to understand that the people of the Bible weren't ignorant? Germ theory of disease? Human flight? Internal combustion engine? Aquaducts? Sails? SR71?

(September 23, 2013 at 12:24 am)Godschild Wrote: What qualifications do you have to determine when a person is considered ignorant, or do you proclaim yourself as judge of the ancient people.

.

What qualifications? Perhaps more than most; I took physics and calculus while still in high school. This means I had the benefit of Newton, Galileo, Einstein, Laplace, and a host of others to inform my opinion rather than the dictates of goat herders 2000 years ago.

The only qualification you give is the blind obedience to a conglomerated text written by men that can best be described as blind when it comes to the knowledge that a mere child posseses today. The truly sad part is that you consider your feliance knowledge. Children know more about our existence than you do, yet you proclaim more wisdom.

There is something worse than Catholic priests fondeling balls of adolescents; it's people like you telling the same young people to ignore reality for the sake of your fictional comfort zone. You want to talk about faith? I have more faith in our young people than you do. You want to indoctrinate them, I want to teach them what I know and bask in the glory of how they can further our understanding of existence.

You only want to drag them back to an understanding of our existence that was ignorant 2000 years ago. How very loving of you. I'm sure your Christ would be proud.

(September 23, 2013 at 12:24 am)Godschild Wrote: He came to redeem us form ourselves ie. sin. He hasn't saved you yet but, for those of us who accept who He is and what He did for us by the grace of God we have His salvation ie. we've been redeemed!

GC

All the denominations that believe Christ is their savior because of who He is and what He did are in agreement.

GC

Why not His word is timeless.

GC

1) How do you know we've been redeemed? Give historical evidence, please.
2) Okay, if they're all in agreement, why do they differ 30,000 different ways? Explain.
3) Until you look over every contradiction in the Bible, I'll never believe this. Look 'em up, explain why every single contradiction is actually a truth, and then I'll respect that opinion.

GC, PROVE SOMETHING! Back up something, ANYTHING you say with a provable fact! I'll buy you a cheeseburger! Just stop spitting out dogmatic speculation!