Nora says it right. Exactly. I understand what you are saying, Mehmet, and I am trying to remain calm and consider your opinions with out letting my emotions get the best of me. I mean that. But fuck! According to your reasoning, women can't have a life or else they are putting themselves at risk or should be considered of lesser value. I mean... I should be allowed to walk home from work or school... And even a club for that matter. I should be allowed to go have a nice run at the park early in the AM. I should be allowed to want to be alone and not want company for a while. How is doing these things making an attack my fault? My job requires me to visit homes all day to provide counseling. I drive and walk alone most of the day. I am helping others, yet I face situations where I feel scared at a certain stare and approach. I run back to my car and wait it out. Why is this fair? And if I decide to go to a bar... That is still my choice. I fucking love beer, dude. I have the right to enjoy it. If I got attacked then would it be my responsibility? Fuck no. Then men have to be careful, too. Don't go there. Also... Don't have a partner since he/she might rape you. Oh wait, do have a partner so you are protected. Oh wait... Wtf?

Quote:Men are more often the victims of violent attacks. I find it "funny" nobody tells them to watch out for sketchy places and have a buddy system.

Well, we're talking about women and rape, not men.
If you think that you can defend yourself against a potential attack, with whatever you have, fighting skills, weapons that you may carry and etc. please go on about being the lone wolf, I generally am such a person, and I carry some sort of a close-combat weapon on my person at all times.
But for women, as they are physically weaker, they cannot tackle a potential attacker as a man could or would.
So its best for them to go out at nights with at least one friend by their side.

Quote:Yes. Some prefer men, some prefer children, some prefer slutty looking women, some prefer old ladies, some prefer women dressed sportily, some prefer work uniforms. Why is this relevant?

Well, I specifically meant the women that are the target of the discussion.
Obviously no one is going to hold a child, man or an old lady liable for being raped.
The title of the thread was "to what extent is the victim responsible" so I'm speaking of the cases in which the opposing side can claim such a thing.

Quote:Nope. That's not the majority of rape at all. Sorry.

Well, in the circumstances under which the rape victim herself is being blamed, it is.
Is it not?

Quote:Why? Why is that at all important?

If the rapist doesn't notice you, would you be his target?

Quote:Oh, so you're writing from a position of absolute ignorance on the subject? I should have known....
Well, here's some news for ya. The majority of rape (against women, at least) is committed in their homes by their boyfriend or husband. Same goes for women being physically assaulted and murdered, too. It's usually their partner, in their own home. In fact, it's only a minority of women who are raped by strangers.

I think I made it clear that I don't speak of the cases of rape that are commited by acquaintances of the victim. Why you really would bring the subject up is beyond me.

Quote: If I'm walking home and get attacked, that's NOT my fault in any way shape or form.

Did I say it was? However if you do live in a place, hypothetically speaking, where rape cases are high, you'd be endangering yourself by walking alone. All I'm saying is, that it is unwise to disregard danger that might be close.

Quote: It's my RIGHT to walk down a public street at any time I fucking choose.

I'm not talking about your rights. Rapist do not care about your rights.
So best to take precautions.

Quote:If some cunt decides to break the law and attack me in any way, that's 100% their responsibility, not mine. I will not be held responsible for the actions of others. Nope.

Whenever I voice an opinion, I'm treated with hostility as though I'm in league with rapists. Have I stated that you will be held responsible? But if you play with fire, you get burned. If you walk dark alleys alone at night, there is the danger of getting attacked. You pay the ultimate price for your carelessness. You won't be held liable in court afterwards, but what happened, happened already.

The best way would be to make rape an offense that is punishable by death, and put a camera in every corner to make streets safer. And if those are absent, it is up to you to protect yourself.

Quote:Mehmet, I was an 18 year old girl walking home from work when I was attacked. So, excuse me for not being careful. My bad. And my work clothes might have been too... Uniformish. I'm sorry. I made them do it, right?

You are attacking the wrong person. I have not claimed that you're at fault. Your attacker could have attacked anyone else that was walking alone. That means, don't walk alone. We don't our girls out late without anyone to protect them, even if they go to public places, It's for their safety.

Quote:Talk to any cop or DA and you'll find you are wrong about this. Most rapes are not stranger rapes. They are committed by acquaintances, friends, boyfriends, and ex-boyfriends. They happen in homes, at parties, in cars, etc, not in back alleys. They happen because women feel comfortable and safe with people they know and so let their guard down.

I made it clear that I was not talking about this.
As for homes and cars, they're practically the same as back alleys, however its hard to pull it off in a place where your actions are open to everyone, some is bound to bash your head in for attacking a woman.
There are also cases in which drugs might be used for that purpose.

Quote:No one is saying that women shouldn't take care. Just as you shouldn't drive you expensive car to the ghetto and leave the keys it, women shouldn't go out alone in dangerous areas. But it's really hard to imagine your ex being angry enough to come to your house and rape you, or for your friend's friend to rape you when you're drunk at a party full of people you know. Should women be paranoid, quiet, chaperoned mice with every man they meet? Because if you get raped, stats say you will know your rapist.

AS I said, I'm talking about being careful, if someone you know or trust attacks and rapes you, its not something that you can prevent, is it?
I'm talking about rape cases that can be prevented by simply having a friend with you, or avoiding places where you can get raped.

Should women be paranoid? No, but they should be careful. Especially when there are no laws that put the fear of God into rapists. Such as public executions, for example.

Quote:Nora says it right. Exactly. I understand what you are saying, Mehmet, and I am trying to remain calm and consider your opinions with out letting my emotions get the best of me. I mean that. But fuck! According to your reasoning, women can't have a life or else they are putting themselves at risk or should be considered of lesser value. I mean... I should be allowed to walk home from work or school... And even a club for that matter. I should be allowed to go have a nice run at the park early in the AM. I should be allowed to want to be alone and not want company for a while. How is doing these things making an attack my fault? My job requires me to visit homes all day to provide counseling. I drive and walk alone most of the day. I am helping others, yet I face situations where I feel scared at a certain stare and approach. I run back to my car and wait it out. Why is this fair? And if I decide to go to a bar... That is still my choice. I fucking love beer, dude. I have the right to enjoy it. If I got attacked then would it be my responsibility? Fuck no. Then men have to be careful, too. Don't go there. Also... Don't have a partner since he/she might rape you. Oh wait, do have a partner so you are protected. Oh wait... Wtf?

Well, I didn't say you shouldn't, but it is not a problem when the risk of being attacked is minimized. In places like pubs or bars or night clubs, you have the risk of being attacked by people, or if you go to places like ghettos, you risk the same thing. It is your right as a citizen to go where you are pleased without being mugged, raped or killed. However you must take into consideration that there are people who do not care about the law, nor your rights as a human being, and you must take measures to otherwise protect yourself.

For example, if you go to a pub with your friends, fine. IF you go to a pub alone, and you stay up all night and go home at an ungodly hour, and someone attacks you on the way, say, not with the intent of raping you, but just to steal your valuables, yes, he is the criminal, but you are the irresponsible one for stepping into the turf of the criminal, when you leave for your home at night, they leave their home at nights to look for their prey. I'd say that people need to realize that streets are not safe at night, and if you prefer being alone, you should have a means of self-defense. But if you eschew that aswell, you put yourself in danger my friend, I can't really say anything else about it.

You always talk about "should", yes you should, but you can't, and that's the reality. Either you cope with reality, or continue to live in your "idealized" world where no one gets mugged or raped, and be mugged or raped one day yourself.
As I said, it is the duty of the law to punish perpetrators, it is the duty of the law-abiding people to take precautions.

(September 27, 2013 at 11:40 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:Men are more often the victims of violent attacks. I find it "funny" nobody tells them to watch out for sketchy places and have a buddy system.

Well, we're talking about women and rape, not men.
If you think that you can defend yourself against a potential attack, with whatever you have, fighting skills, weapons that you may carry and etc. please go on about being the lone wolf, I generally am such a person, and I carry some sort of a close-combat weapon on my person at all times.
But for women, as they are physically weaker, they cannot tackle a potential attacker as a man could or would.
So its best for them to go out at nights with at least one friend by their side.

Double standards are part of this discussion whether you like it or not. And many men get badly beaten or killed in violent attacks.

(September 27, 2013 at 11:47 am)Psykhronic Wrote:

(September 27, 2013 at 11:40 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, we're talking about women and rape, not men.
If you think that you can defend yourself against a potential attack, with whatever you have, fighting skills, weapons that you may carry and etc. please go on about being the lone wolf, I generally am such a person, and I carry some sort of a close-combat weapon on my person at all times.
But for women, as they are physically weaker, they cannot tackle a potential attacker as a man could or would.
So its best for them to go out at nights with at least one friend by their side.

Double standards are part of this discussion whether you like it or not. And many men get badly beaten or killed in violent attacks.

Well, not for me. It was not about being mugged or robbed at night, or getting into a bar fight with some other guy over a petty issue, its about being raped, and I have been attacked by a variety of different perpetrators, but none ever wanted to rape me.
Some attacked me over political issues, some were street kids looking for a handout, some were just drunkards and junkies looking for a fight.

But due to their physically inferior nature, and the fact that women are naturally the party that "chooses" when it comes to sexual relations, most rapists are naturally men, not women.

Breaking down the topic, we are ultimately talking about people preventing themselves from becoming a victim to a crime. Examining the expectations put on potential victims of any crime is relevant.

(September 27, 2013 at 11:57 am)Psykhronic Wrote: Breaking down the topic, we are ultimately talking about people preventing themselves from becoming a victim to a crime. Examining the expectations put on potential victims of any crime is relevant.

Well, we're speaking of a specific type of crime, however. When it comes to rape, most men are generally the perpetrators of the crime, and seldom the victims, except in places like prison, where they are turned into women.

And your point? By the way, when a man gets raped he is not magically turned into a woman.

(September 27, 2013 at 12:08 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: And your point? By the way, when a man gets raped he is not magically turned into a woman.

Well, for them, he is.
And they treat him like a woman. My point is that men are met with more violent attacks than women is not really relevant. As I said, you might not hit a drunk woman who just cursed your family, I wouldn't. I would however attack any man who speaks in such a manner to my person in my vicinity. Against a woman, I'd show mercy on the accord of being a woman, that being, physically not able to defend her words.

But only he can identify as a woman - nobody else decides a person's gender identification but themselves.

And my point was not that men are met with more violence - but how we treat a crime that occurs primarily to men versus women.

(September 27, 2013 at 12:11 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: But only he can identify as a woman - nobody else decides a person's gender identification but themselves.

Dude, that's not the point, I really don't care. He can scream "I'm a man" as much as he wants as prisoners run a train on him.
You dwell on my word games, while missing my point.

Quote:And my point was not that men are met with more violence - but how we treat a crime that occurs primarily to men versus women.

Well, not in the same way, obviously. Men and women are born with different characteristics, and similarly, crimes perpetrated by men and women against the opposite sexes is different.
You treat them based on these differences.