(September 30, 2013 at 8:06 pm)Zazzy Wrote: @fff

You seem like what I need here. Forgive me if I offend,

You have not offended me.

Quote:

A main theme of the article (and of my general experience, which I realize comes to about fuck-all) is that the gun culture/NRA (is there a difference?)

Yes, there is a difference,

Quote: absolutely refuses to even have a conversation about how to make gun laws which make life safer- laws forcing parents to keep guns safe

I'm all for it.

Quote:, designing smart guns.

There are many safer designs now.

Quote:, keeping guns out of the hands of lunatics

I would like to see stricter background checks and fewer permits issued overall.

Quote: They seem to always construct the strawman of "You're trying to take my guns away!" The horse is clearly out of the barn on gun ownership,

If I understand your point here - I think I agree.

Quote: But why can't we have a constructive conversation about more regulated gun ownership?

I think it is high time we did.

Quote:Is there REALLY that great a fear that having a conversation about regulating guns will devolve into banning guns- which everyone knows will never happen?

You got that right.

Quote: It seems to me that one can never get past the strawman and actually talk about the really, really big problems with guns in America.

I am willing - Are those who are afraid of guns or naive willing to do the same?

Can you address some of this?
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(September 30, 2013 at 9:44 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote:

(September 30, 2013 at 8:06 pm)Zazzy Wrote: absolutely refuses to even have a conversation about how to make gun laws which make life safer- laws forcing parents to keep guns safe

I'm all for it.

Quote:, designing smart guns.

There are many safer designs now.

Could you elaborate on the safer designs?

Quote: I would like to see stricter background checks and fewer permits issued overall.

What would that look like practically?

Quote:

Quote: They seem to always construct the strawman of "You're trying to take my guns away!" The horse is clearly out of the barn on gun ownership,

If I understand your point here - I think I agree.

Are we agreeing about the strawman, the horse being out of the barn, or both?

Quote:

Quote:Is there REALLY that great a fear that having a conversation about regulating guns will devolve into banning guns- which everyone knows will never happen?

You got that right.

Which did I get right? That the fear is that great, or that everyone knows guns are not going to be banned, or both?

Quote: I am willing - Are those who are afraid of guns or naive willing to do the same?

I am both afraid of guns and naive about them. That is why I am asking you to help me understand them and the culture that protects them so fiercely.

It isn't the guns that worry me.


It's the assholes with guns you have to watch.

As a gun owner, I'll weigh in on this topic.

First, I'm a frothing liberal. I'm not registered as a Democrat because the DemocratIC party isn't nearly liberal enough for me. So I am not your typical gun owner. I detest the NRA and all they are doing to goose unreasonable fear into a populace that is too eager to buy into their bullshit about vigilante justice against home invasions, school shootings, etc.

That said, there are good and reasonable reasons to own guns. I, too, was raised in a family where guns were just... part of life. My Dad's dad was a government hunter and trapper. Hunting, trapping and foraging was a way of life. I first shot a .22 rifle when I was 9 years old. (I still have that .22, too, along with a newer 10/.22, and I'll pick up a .22 over almost any other gun anytime.)

If you live rural like I do, you need to know how to handle a gun. I have had to kill suffering livestock as well as varmints that were menacing my livestock. It is part of responsible stewardship in farming. I carry a 9 mm when I'm hiking alone up in the forestry. I'm not too worried about running into anything, but I'd rather have the gun and not need it than need it and not have it. And by that I mean surprising a momma bear or a cougar. Not too worried about 2-legged animals.

I don't hunt personally, but I know many who do and the meat contributes enormously to their food supplies. I'm continually astonished at what some people eat: Bear, squirrel, possum, even beaver (no cracks, please!), along with the more traditional elk, venison and moose. If the kill is clean and merciful, no parts wasted, I have no problem with that and would do it myself without hesitation if necessary. Hunting is a way of life for many.

RESPONSIBLE gun ownership is the key. I agree with those who have said guns should be safely stored if there are small children in the house. By age 7-8, it's time to start teaching them how to handle guns RESPONSIBLY. Guns should be put away when not in use and children should always be supervised when they are learning to shoot. Education, education, education. And far more restrictive, stringent CCW regulations. I swear, anyone with enough box tops can get a CCW permit. It's outrageous. Comprehensive, thorough background checks for ALL guns sold should be a no-brainer. And personally, I have no problem with limiting magazine capacity or eliminating all fully automatic weapons. No responsible gun owner or hunter needs that stuff. If I can't hit it with 10 rounds, I've got no business anywhere near a gun in the first place.

Conversely, I'd like to see non-gun people learn more about the subject before trying to talk about it. I find it annoying when people use the word, "clip," when what they mean is a "magazine." Similarly, educate yourself as to what a semi-automatic gun is v. a fully automatic weapon. Gun owners lose patience with trying to talk to hysterical people who don't even understand the terminology.

A final point: Most of the so-called "gun control" efforts in this country are laughable. They keep trying to go after long guns -- when most of the gun violence perpetrated in the USA is from hand guns. Did you ever hear any discussion about eliminating THOSE? I didn't.

That wholly owned subsidiary of the NRA...the supreme court...overturned settled case law in 2008 to rule that Washington, DC could not ban handguns. They have made the situation so much worse.

Minimalist... I agree. I detest the NRA.

Don't blame guns. Blame retarded parents who leave them easily accessible to their children and don't explain to them when they get older that guns are not toys and should never be treated as such.

(September 30, 2013 at 8:06 pm)Zazzy Wrote: A main theme of the article (and of my general experience, which I realize comes to about fuck-all) is that the gun culture/NRA (is there a difference?) absolutely refuses to even have a conversation about how to make gun laws which make life safer- laws forcing parents to keep guns safe, designing smart guns, keeping guns out of the hands of lunatics. They seem to always construct the strawman of "You're trying to take my guns away!"

That, or they trot out the "more kids die in car accidents than get shot by guns" argument, as if there's a certain acceptable number of children who die by guns that they're willing to live with (and probably are), instead of trying to save those children who do accidentally die from a firearm. Even if it saves one child I'd think that would be enough. I mean, what kind of price do you put on a child's life?

Like I've said, I don't want my children to die just so some gun owner can feel safe.

(October 1, 2013 at 10:12 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: That, or they trot out the "more kids die in car accidents than get shot by guns" argument, as if there's a certain acceptable number of children who die by guns that they're willing to live with (and probably are), instead of trying to save those children who do accidentally die from a firearm. Even if it saves one child I'd think that would be enough. I mean, what kind of price do you put on a child's life?

Like I've said, I don't want my children to die just so some gun owner can feel safe.

Read the whole article- it's worth your time. The reporters found that the number of deaths by gun are far underreported in national stats due to quirks in coroner's reports. It's an eye-opening piece of journalism.

Quote:Don't blame guns.

Um...I blame the scumbags who sell them by spreading fear to idiots.