(October 17, 2013 at 2:21 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 17, 2013 at 2:16 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Right, and those values are unique and original to Christians.

Oh, wait. They're not.

Values of a God rather than a self centered life then. You probably live in a Christian culture though so we will call it Christian values to avoid beating around the bush.

And if your group just happens to be able to take credit for those values that they have no claim to ownership over, well... just a coincidence, huh?

And why are the only choices "god" or "selfishness?" Kinda poisoning the well, aren't you?

Quote:We have this wonderful thing called a conscience

Quote:We certainly do yes. Why do you think we have that?

Because we are highly evolved social animals and a having a conscience is a trait that evolution would favour.

or alternatively.

Magic man dun it.

You could say evolution as atheism understands it was a purposeless byproduct of an unintentionally created universe.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:04 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: At the heart of Christianity is community, family, peace and good will to all mankind and charity as you know.

Yes, with all the current oppression of women and gays and atheists and Mormons and Muslims, I had had completely forgotten that these are central tenets of Christianity. Perhaps you should be reminding your own people instead.

Atheists, of course, have no families, no community, and never display peace, good will, or charity. I guess I'll have to stop my volunteer activities.

Quote: So you get some of that Christian sliding in there even if you're thoroughly secular about the whole thing.

Right. Because you've demonstrated that well.

Quote: If you have seen How the Grinch Stole Christmas you'll know that Christmas isn't the presents or the tat.

I love this movie and book. It isn't about Christians, though.

Quote:I was under the impression that everyone knew this? Perhaps they don't in Merica or wherever.

You must never, ever underestimate the stupidity of American Christians.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You could say evolution as atheism understands it was a purposeless byproduct of an unintentionally created universe.

Atheism doesn't understand anything, it is a position on whether gods exist.

But my personal answer is yes. Shit happens.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Esquilax Wrote: And if your group just happens to be able to take credit for those values that they have no claim to ownership over, well... just a coincidence, huh?

Give the grace and love of God working through the commonly shared good of humanity the credit if you like. You can see Christmas as the embodiment of that, it can be through all religions equally that's fine.

Quote:And why are the only choices "god" or "selfishness?" Kinda poisoning the well, aren't you?

Secular Humanist morality is ripped from Christian/religious morality anyway seeing as you have nothing of your own. If you wanted to apply a rational scientific or an evolutionary based moral system it's already been tried before and it failed in horror.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:31 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: But my personal answer is yes. Shit happens.

Shit happens because?

(October 17, 2013 at 2:27 am)genkaus Wrote: How about the thing called "conscience"?

As a by-product of evolution conscience would be no different than any other animal’s instinctual behavior, like bird migration. If conscience is an accidental feature of our species then it is not a reliable guide for ethical behavior.

To avoid the equivocation between conscience and instinct, you need not consider conscience an evolved instinct, per se, even if the means by which it appeared is evolutionary. You could say that it is a product of Man’s capacity to reason. This affords various solutions like enlightened self-interest, tit-for-tat, the “golden rule”, social contract theory, etc.
The problem is that you have started a regress that needs a termination point. By making reason the evolutionary by-product from which conscience gets its force, you must likewise explain how reason, itself being an accidental feature is reliable. First, you could say that the efficacy of reason is axiomatic. While I agree this presupposition is needed, the fact that you can reason at all is itself in need of an explanation. The required explanation forces the regress further back into the deeper prior causes.

The efficacy of reason presupposes that you live in a world with inherit rational order. This appears to be the case. Now either the rational order of the world is essential, a brute fact, or it is accidental, a contingent feature. In my estimation, the four fundamental forces and handful of known constants have all the characteristics of accidental attributes. First you can imagine a world with more or fewer forces and one in which the constants have different values, or even change within this universe. Second, even if the universe did indeed come “out of nothing” on its own, then so also must its physical laws come with it “out of nothing.” In this scenario, the secular response to “out of nothing, nothing comes” amounts to “out of absurdity, something comes.” Any morality that, at root, derives from absurdity is really no morality at all.
So the de-nihilists, atheists who deny that they are nihilists, must, if they are to be taken seriously, show that their favored ethical system is ultimately supported by something other than pure chance.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:31 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(October 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You could say evolution as atheism understands it was a purposeless byproduct of an unintentionally created universe.

Atheism doesn't understand anything, it is a position on whether gods exist.

But my personal answer is yes. Shit happens.

Atheism is merely the "off" position on the issue of any god existing. And I have met atheists that don't do a damned thing to educate themselves as to why they are on the "off" postition.

However, the more educated a society is, the less religious they are. And the more deep into science and higher up the degree scale, the more likely they will be atheists.

(October 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You could say evolution as atheism understands it was a purposeless byproduct of an unintentionally created universe.

And you're still telling others what they believe. Let's see some improvement on that, Sword.

(October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: I mean... if there is no one or nothing to [say you are wrong, but you] about; a little swing w/ your buddies wife, or that $10 the acne faced kid gave you extra w/ your change at the Walmart; or telling your wife you were out w/ your buddy instead of his wife... How do you keep it in check? Or do you?

What I really hear you saying is that if god didn't exist, you would be out fucking your buddy's wife and lying about it to yours.