(October 21, 2013 at 12:01 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 20, 2013 at 6:39 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Also, to your other points: you think the Big Bang is ridiculous because, what caused it? What was before it?
But God has always existed? He's just...been? What makes God always existing and never being created/caused by anything less ridiculous?

If you have an event or process that occurs then something else will have caused that event or process to occur. The universe if taken as a whole can be seen as one great event. God however isn't an event or process that ever began to occur nor a process or sequence of events in himself. So he is both eternal and changeless.

If on the other hand all you have are events that are all caused and nothing that was uncaused then there will be an infinite number of events for any specific event (such as the creation of our universe) to occur. So nothing would ever have been caused to exist.

What if the universe always was? What if was never created or brought into being by anything, and it just...existed?

(October 21, 2013 at 6:07 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: What if the universe always was? What if was never created or brought into being by anything, and it just...existed?

You have time, space, energy and matter converting into each other and generally things that occur and happen in a sequence so there's a lot going on there but of all of this has to start somewhere. You can see the universe as like a ball rolling down a mountain, the mountain isn't and can't practically infinitely tall but will have a summit where everything will be in a resting state and from here the action can be kicked off. You have a starting point for everything that exists which is always there.

(October 21, 2013 at 6:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 6:07 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: What if the universe always was? What if was never created or brought into being by anything, and it just...existed?

You have time, space, energy and matter converting into each other and generally things that occur and happen in a sequence so there's a lot going on there but of all of this has to start somewhere.

No it doesn't. The universe isn't an event or process that ever began to occur nor a process or sequence of events in itself!

(Prove that wrong)

(October 21, 2013 at 6:20 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: No it doesn't. The universe isn't an event or process that ever began to occur nor a process or sequence of events in itself!

(Prove that wrong)

It has a beginning, it has an end and this stuff happens/developments in the middle. This is certainly one massive event that is currently occurring right now.



It runs along a thermodynamic energy gradient as described here.

http://joyuscrynoid.hubpages.com/hub/Max...Production

God will be the unmoved mover as described by Aristotle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

So you can see that makes more sense than the universe "just existing" you have some kind of set-up there that makes sense.

(October 21, 2013 at 6:34 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: God will be the unmoved mover as described by Aristotle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

So you can see that makes more sense than the universe "just existing" you have some kind of set-up there that makes sense.

No it doesn't, because then you have to provide an explanation for the existence of such a creature... and that.. I think.. is well beyond even the pope's pay grade!

(October 21, 2013 at 6:34 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 6:20 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: No it doesn't. The universe isn't an event or process that ever began to occur nor a process or sequence of events in itself!

(Prove that wrong)

It has a beginning, it has an end and this stuff happens/developments in the middle. This is certainly one massive event that is currently occurring right now.



It runs along a thermodynamic energy gradient as described here.

http://joyuscrynoid.hubpages.com/hub/Max...Production

God will be the unmoved mover as described by Aristotle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

So you can see that makes more sense than the universe "just existing" you have some kind of set-up there that makes sense.

Okay great, your argument proves deism at best, tell me now how do prove that it is your god behinds this and not one of the thousand other gods that humanity has worshipped

(October 20, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Arrogance to claim that atheists don't believe in God? But I thought that was the idea of atheism?

Since when did you see fit so simply say that atheists don't believe in god? The arrogance you show is when you go beyond that. If you simply stuck with the not believing in god part, you wouldn't be such an asshole.

(October 20, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Or it could be you're talking nonsense? I know atheists don't believe in God so I'm trying to challenge this mistaken. If you don't want to defend this belief/ideology of your then don't bother.

Are you for real? Are you really this dumb?

(October 20, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You're the one being condescending and calling me names I'm not doing that to you. Ad hominen attack much? It just means you have no real argument worth talking about if you resort to that.

Yes, I am being condescending and calling you names. That is because of the sheer disrespect you have shown this forum, its members, and the rules of proper discussion.

It is not an ad hominem, because those are my points. You are behaving like a complete asshole and using this forum like a public restroom to excrete your stupidity. That is not an insult to avoid an argument. That is my argument.

You don't like being called an asshole? STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE.

(October 21, 2013 at 6:34 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: It has a beginning, it has an end and this stuff happens/developments in the middle. This is certainly one massive event that is currently occurring right now.

So, first of all, it's not accurate to say that the big bang constitutes a beginning of the universe, since we don't know what was going on before it, and since it literally was just an expansion of space into its current state. Calling that a beginning is entirely dishonest when you don't know what came before it.

Second of all, since we don't know what will happen after the end, calling that a literal ending is a similarly unjustified leap of logic so you can desperately cling to your similarly unjustified beliefs.

Third of all, you're committing what's known as a fallacy of composition, when you assume that what's true of a part of the universe- temporal things require a beginning- is true of the whole of the universe, and this fallacy is being committed on multiple levels. It really is a complete failure of logic, Sword: considering the universe as a whole, there's no reason to assume that beyond its borders it is submersed in linear time like all the things within it are. You don't know what the fuck is beyond the expanding borders of our universe; it could very well be that time runs backwards out there, obviating the need for a cause at all. Also, given that everything we know about sufficiently large objects tells us that gravity does some weird things to reality, including space and time, the fact that you're assuming that the largest possible thing in our universe wouldn't be the same, just shows how desperate you were to reach your preferred conclusion.

And, as has been pointed out to you, even accepting every premise, your argument only gets us to deism, and not even to active or conscious deism, not to christianity, so you've failed anyway.

Got anything real?

Quote:So you can see that makes more sense than the universe "just existing" you have some kind of set-up there that makes sense.

And an argument from incredulity will get you nowhere, by the way.

(October 21, 2013 at 6:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 6:07 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: What if the universe always was? What if was never created or brought into being by anything, and it just...existed?

You have time, space, energy and matter converting into each other and generally things that occur and happen in a sequence so there's a lot going on there but of all of this has to start somewhere. You can see the universe as like a ball rolling down a mountain, the mountain isn't and can't practically infinitely tall but will have a summit where everything will be in a resting state and from here the action can be kicked off. You have a starting point for everything that exists which is always there.

The bible is a comic book, not a science textbook. And you are still stuck with other religions claiming their god as the gap answer, and all of you are still stuck with the problem of infinite regress.

It never occurs to any of you that "all this" is a product of a "what" and not a magical "who".

What is scaring you so much at the thought of this being it? What is scaring you so much at the prospect of being finite and ultimately irrelevant to the past when you didn't exist, and to the future when you will not exist? To me it is like being frightened needlessly at the seasons changing.

My life is no different than yours. My life was no different when I did believe. I simply got to the point where filling in that gap with a stupid projection of human qualities on the invisible, made no sense.

Many here who used to believe can tell you the big sense of relief once you realize you don't have to defend that garbage. It was understandable when our species didn't know any better. But you look silly now.

(October 22, 2013 at 8:13 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 21, 2013 at 6:17 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: You have time, space, energy and matter converting into each other and generally things that occur and happen in a sequence so there's a lot going on there but of all of this has to start somewhere. You can see the universe as like a ball rolling down a mountain, the mountain isn't and can't practically infinitely tall but will have a summit where everything will be in a resting state and from here the action can be kicked off. You have a starting point for everything that exists which is always there.

The bible is a comic book, not a science textbook. And you are still stuck with other religions claiming their god as the gap answer, and all of you are still stuck with the problem of infinite regress.

It never occurs to any of you that "all this" is a product of a "what" and not a magical "who".

What is scaring you so much at the thought of this being it? What is scaring you so much at the prospect of being finite and ultimately irrelevant to the past when you didn't exist, and to the future when you will not exist? To me it is like being frightened needlessly at the seasons changing.

My life is no different than yours. My life was no different when I did believe. I simply got to the point where filling in that gap with a stupid projection of human qualities on the invisible, made no sense.

Many here who used to believe can tell you the big sense of relief once you realize you don't have to defend that garbage. It was understandable when our species didn't know any better. But you look silly now.

I do not extract my knowledge from the bible like Sword of Christ however your comment does not make any sense.
If we are finite as you say then all the knowledge and consciousness that we got goes to the dogs once we die and by the way where this knowledge and consciousness come from?
Who build it up?
Oh, somebody else build it up for us?
How ridiculous you are!!!
Since when we get something for free?
Didn't you go from primary to high school and from here to some trade or uni and from here to work experience and from here to some work and from here you realize that the hard work continue on and on?
Are you joking?
Physically speaking nothing get lost so why this rule should not apply to something a lot higher like consciousness?
Where is the evidence that we are finite?