(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: If we are finite as you say then all the knowledge and consciousness that we got goes to the dogs once we die and by the way where this knowledge and consciousness come from?

There's these brilliant things called books, most people get their knowledge from them. Consciousness is a byproduct of biological processes within the brain.

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: Who build it up?
Oh, somebody else build it up for us?
How ridiculous you are!!!
Since when we get something for free?

Built what up?
http://www.free-stuff.co.uk/

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: Didn't you go from primary to high school and from here to some trade or uni and from here to work experience and from here to some work and from here you realize that the hard work continue on and on?
Are you joking?
Physically speaking nothing get lost so why this rule should not apply to something a lot higher like consciousness?

What makes you think consciousness is "something a lot higher"

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: Where is the evidence that we are finite?

Where is the evidence that we are not?

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: Where is the evidence that we are finite?

I could give it to you, but you wouldn't be around to examine it. And I would probably go to prison, too.

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: I do not extract my knowledge from the bible like Sword of Christ however your comment does not make any sense.
If we are finite as you say then all the knowledge and consciousness that we got goes to the dogs once we die and by the way where this knowledge and consciousness come from?
Who build it up?
Oh, somebody else build it up for us?
How ridiculous you are!!!
Since when we get something for free?
Didn't you go from primary to high school and from here to some trade or uni and from here to work experience and from here to some work and from here you realize that the hard work continue on and on?
Are you joking?
Physically speaking nothing get lost so why this rule should not apply to something a lot higher like consciousness?
Where is the evidence that we are finite?

Actually enrico that is a question, but here is some evidence that our mind (consciousness) is directly dependant on the brain

Montreal procedure Wrote:In neuroscience, the Montreal procedure is a surgical procedure pioneered by Dr. Wilder Penfield of Montreal, Canada, in the 1930s at the Montreal Neurological Institute of McGill University. It is effective in the treatment of epilepsy.

Dr. Penfield and Dr. Herbert Jasper together developed the "Montreal procedure" as a new neurological approach to eliminating epileptic seizures. The surgeon administers a local anaesthetic to the patient so he or she remains conscious during surgery. The surgeon then removes a piece of skull to expose the brain tissue. In response to probing, the conscious patient can describe his or her feelings so the surgeon can identify the exact location of seizure activity. Dr. Penfield discovered that the removal of the brain tissue in this location contributes to ending the epileptic patient's seizures.

More than half of the patients treated with this new method, which became known as the "Montreal Procedure," were cured of seizures. Dr. Penfield himself performed the operation more than any other neurosurgeon in the world.

Another good example is Phineas Gage

Phineas Gage Wrote:Phineas P. Gage (1823–1860) was an American railroad construc­tion foreman remembered for his improba­ble[D] surviv­al of an accident in which a large iron rod was driven completely through his head, destroy­ing much of his brain's left frontal lobe, and for that injury's reported effects on his personal­i­ty and behavior over the succeed­ing twelve years—​effects so profound that (for a time at least) friends saw him as "no longer Gage."
[Fig. 1] The "abrupt and intrusive visitor".​[D][E]

Long known as "the American Crowbar Case"—​once termed "the case which more than all others is calculated to excite our wonder, impair the value of prognosis, and even to subvert our physio­log­i­cal doctrines" [34]—​Phineas Gage influenced nineteenth-century discus­sion about the mind and brain, particu­lar­ly debate on cerebral localiz­a­tion, and was perhaps the first case to suggest that damage to specific parts of the brain might affect personality.​[3]:ch7-9[13]

Gage is a fixture in the curricula of neurology, psychology and related disciplines, and is frequently mentioned in books and academic papers; he even has a minor place in popular culture.[F] Despite this celebrity the body of established fact about Gage and what he was like (before or after his injury) is remark­a­bly small,[G] which has allowed "the fitting of almost any theory [desired] to the small number of facts we have" [H]—​Gage having been cited, over the years, in support of various theories of the brain entirely inconsist­ent with one another. A survey of published accounts, includ­ing scientif­ic ones, has found that they almost always severely distort Gage's behavior­al changes, exaggerat­ing the known facts when not directly contradict­ing them.[G]

Two photographic portraits of Gage, and a physician's report of his physical and mental condition late in life, were announced in 2009 and 2010. This new evidence indicates that Gage's most serious mental changes may have been temporary, so that in later life he was far more functional, and socially far better adjusted, than was previously assumed. A social recovery hypothesis suggests that Gage's employment as a stagecoach driver in Chile provided daily structure allowing him to relearn lost social and personal skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Now this in too light with the opposing, we have no examples of a mind without a brain
here is another example in MRI images
Live thinking person

And someone dead from traumatic brain injury

(October 22, 2013 at 9:14 am)enrico Wrote: Where is the evidence that we are finite?

Every single shred of evidence from the mountains of studies of neurobiology and neurochemistry show that when you end brain activity, you end the self. You can end the self even before the body dies. Not ONE PIECE of evidence from all these studies indicates ANYTHING but that the brain is the seat of the self.

I keep asking theists about Alzheimer's Disease, and they keep not answering it. WHERE IS THE SOUL of a person with advanced AD who has lost every hint of their essential self (and had their loved ones watch each piece of it go over time)? Is it trapped for years in a useless body? Has it already left the body?

(October 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Two photographic portraits of Gage, and a physician's report of his physical and mental condition late in life, were announced in 2009 and 2010. This new evidence indicates that Gage's most serious mental changes may have been temporary, so that in later life he was far more functional, and socially far better adjusted, than was previously assumed. A social recovery hypothesis suggests that Gage's employment as a stagecoach driver in Chile provided daily structure allowing him to relearn lost social and personal skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Now this in too light with the opposing, we have no examples of a mind without a brain
here is another example in MRI images
Live thinking person

And someone dead from traumatic brain injury

We know for certain that that mind/consciousness is no longer associated with that specific brain but this isn't an earth-shattering revelation.

(October 22, 2013 at 2:19 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: We know for certain that that mind/consciousness is no longer associated with that specific brain but this isn't an earth-shattering revelation.

Alright, let's have a little fun. Ever heard of the corpus callosum, Sword? It's the little connective piece of your brain that joins the left hemisphere to the right hemisphere. When that piece is damaged, we have what's called a split-brain injury.

Split brain patients undergo a host of symptoms that, if consciousness was some magical thing that isn't tied to the brain in terms of its generation, we wouldn't expect to see. For one, since the speech center is located in one side of the brain alone, they won't be able to speak the names of objects they can clearly identify, so long as that object is placed within the visual field that connects to the visual brain center on the opposite side of the brain to the speech center. To be clear, all the components are working, it's just that, since consciousness is tied to the brain, it can't bridge the gap and make the proper connections anymore.

Hell, there have even been split brain patients with two distinct belief systems: V.S Ramachandran (I hope that's how you spell that. ) studied a patient that was a theist in one half of his brain, and an atheist in the other, a discovery made by monitoring the two lobes for activity when presented with religious stimuli; one half believed, the other did not.

So, how does that fit in with magic-consciousness, Sword? Does that guy have two minds now? Is one of them going to heaven, and the other to hell? If e ever find a way to repair this, do they suddenly become one again?

When you've watched someone you love slowly deteriorate and die due to Alzheimer's (r.i.p. Grandma), it's not hard to see that the brain is the be all and end all of consciousness and mind.

(October 22, 2013 at 2:36 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Alright, let's have a little fun. Ever heard of the corpus callosum, Sword? It's the little connective piece of your brain that joins the left hemisphere to the right hemisphere. When that piece is damaged, we have what's called a split-brain injury.

Split brain patients undergo a host of symptoms that, if consciousness was some magical thing that isn't tied to the brain in terms of its generation, we wouldn't expect to see. For one, since the speech center is located in one side of the brain alone, they won't be able to speak the names of objects they can clearly identify, so long as that object is placed within the visual field that connects to the visual brain center on the opposite side of the brain to the speech center. To be clear, all the components are working, it's just that, since consciousness is tied to the brain, it can't bridge the gap and make the proper connections anymore.

Hell, there have even been split brain patients with two distinct belief systems: V.S Ramachandran (I hope that's how you spell that. ) studied a patient that was a theist in one half of his brain, and an atheist in the other, a discovery made by monitoring the two lobes for activity when presented with religious stimuli; one half believed, the other did not.

So, how does that fit in with magic-consciousness, Sword? Does that guy have two minds now? Is one of them going to heaven, and the other to hell? If e ever find a way to repair this, do they suddenly become one again?

So you have one being/person who effectively is operating two different brains at the same time? That actually may tell you something.

(October 22, 2013 at 2:44 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: So you have one being/person who effectively is operating two different brains at the same time? That actually may tell you something.

Did you actually read a word I said?

First of all, if you divide something in two, you don't have two of the original thing, you have two halves of that thing, so epic math fail, there.

Secondly, in some respects that person ceased to be one being; there were two states of mind, in the last example I gave you. I've never seen a person so completely misinterpret the written word before now; you've literally derived the complete opposite of what I said.

(October 22, 2013 at 3:07 pm)Esquilax Wrote: First of all, if you divide something in two, you don't have two of the original thing, you have two halves of that thing, so epic math fail, there.

We essentially have two brains connected together, like you said the connection can be cut for interesting results.

Quote:Secondly, in some respects that person ceased to be one being; there were two states of mind, in the last example I gave you.

It's not possible for the same person to have different states of mind?

Quote: I've never seen a person so completely misinterpret the written word before now; you've literally derived the complete opposite of what I said.

People who have a split brain essentially have/operate two different brains each with their own individual character traits. Apparently in this case only one of these brains/hemispheres has an awareness of God which is interesting.