Quote:Are you clueless to biblical History?

Biblical history is an oxymoron, Drippy.

(November 20, 2013 at 12:52 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: So let me get this straight Drich. Your argument for why God's logically inferior method of letting his creations take the reigns is better is because of... freedom of religion as a result? What? Had God himself done the job (which was the suggestion you completely dodged), it would have been executed perfectly, oon your worldview.

So you think it was moses who parted the red sea, moses who sent the plagues to egypt, Moses who took his finger and wrote the 10 commandments into stone, and thought it was Moses' strength and power who saw israel to victory after victory???

Truth known? God DID Set up Judaism Himself, and over time 'we'/man/jews though our afinity to worship Religion it self perverted what God had established.

When we are given a list a rules, legalism is always the result. It does not matter who delivers the rules, in the end given enough time the rules themselves get worshiped, and what God orginally intended get forgotten.

This happened with Judaism durning the period of the judges and in the time of Christ. This happened in Christianity durning the dark ages.

Quote: Comparing what men alone did to what God would logically be capable of doing is 1) The kind of illogical BS we've come to expect from you and 2) Practically bordering on heresy.

What do you mean boarding hersey? It is hersey to all who practice legalism.

What I have found over the last 5 years of doing this 95% of self proclaimed atheists are atheist because they once believe in a legalistic God, which contradicts The bible description of God and the common sense view of God. So in light of these two contradictions one has grounds to dismiss their legalistic faith.
The foolishly proud part of this is, that they believe and never questioned the traditional legalistic view of God they had in the first place. They seem to assume to question whether or not that their former church had the 'correct' version of Christianity, or not would be an 'unforgivable sin.' So even though they claim not to believe in God they 'think' they completely understand Christianity. which ultimatly leads them to believe the no matter their understanding of God, what ever they understood, it was complete. So rather than risk hersey, they just dismissed their faith all together.

Quote:God didn't physically guide the Jews. If he was unhappy how the Jews governed themselves, he could have made it explicit by demonstrating indisputably to them that he was God in a way that could not be denied.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

The above link is a whole book of the bible that says God lead or guide the Jews.

Quote:What you suggest Drich is a being who can't figure out that, duh, Herp de derp if they don't realize it's actually me (God) commanding this they won't listen. And if I don't tell them such that they cannot mistake it, it won't happen.

So again Parting of the red sea, Manta from Heaven, Being lead through the desert by a pillar of fire, plagues, water from rocks, time literally standing still, so a battle could be fought and won in the day light, insanly out number victories, walls of Jericho being destroyed by just marching and trumpet blasts... To you none of this seems God like or Godly?

Even if you say No, If you read the book I gave you a link to The people who were apart of those things knew It was God who lead their way, which is why they orginally adopted His laws..

But again given a few thousand years and the 'religious/legalists' take what God has given and they pervert it to serve their own purposes.

Quote:No. If God himself did what he wanted to enact, we would have not only a personal relationship with him, we would have direct, incontrovertible proof that would keep us from failing to realize the supposed truth.

Who are you to say "we"/Christians don't?

Quote:Since you completely ignored his bit about God doing it himself, of course you didn't understand that part. He was saying that don't try the nonsensical defense that somehow God revealing himself such that we know he exists transgresses free-will as a reason why God doesn't and hasn't done so, certainly not to everyone if he exists and does do it.

I as you can see did not ignore anything. I just did not baby step you through the whole line of thought. For some reason I skiped a step, and thought you could still see it.

(November 20, 2013 at 2:44 pm)Drich Wrote: So you think it was moses who parted the red sea, moses who sent the plagues to egypt, Moses who took his finger and wrote the 10 commandments into stone, and thought it was Moses' strength and power who saw israel to victory after victory???

When did I say that? Misrepresenting your opponents claim is dishonest.

Quote:Truth known? God DID Set up Judaism Himself, and over time 'we'/man/jews though our afinity to worship Religion it self perverted what God had established.

And further dishonesty. I was specifically talking about your nonsense that God was unhappy with the ways the Jews were in terms of religious practice and such. I said nothing about the establishment of Judaism, I was specifically noting that it is the case that if God had wanted the Jews to do as he apparently wanted them to, he coould have easily done so (omnipotence) by making himself appear incontestably as the God of Abraham to the Jews themselves and told them to do so.
The closest you get is Jesus, and yet many of the, what you might call, higher-up Jews thought him to be a fraud. So you cannot use Jesus as an example of God doing so. Neither can you claim that it were those particular Jews' fault, since God's omnipotence and omniscience would allow him to convince them that he was God with ZERO chance of failure. To say otherwise is to treat your God as not supreme.

Quote:When we are given a list a rules, legalism is always the result. It does not matter who delivers the rules, in the end given enough time the rules themselves get worshiped, and what God orginally intended get forgotten.

Then why did God give the Israelites a list of rules? Are you forgetting you're a Christian? If your answer is that it was to demonstrate their sinful plight and point to the coming of the Son of Man, then you're failing to realize (again) coherent, possible alternatives God could have done to ENSURE that (you know, TELL his people that himself while demonstrating he's God so they'll do it).

Quote:This happened with Judaism durning the period of the judges and in the time of Christ. This happened in Christianity durning the dark ages.

Again, you're treating the actions of we (on your worldview) sinful, depraved, limited humans as if they're limits on the capabilities of the Almighty to actualize his will. Again, that seems to border on heresy.

Quote: What do you mean boarding hersey? It is hersey to all who practice legalism.

So let me get this straight: Comparing God's abilities to humans, and placing incoherent restrictions on the power of the almight because his human creations have them, is not heresy? This has nothing to do with legalism, it's straightforward logic. On your worldview, God does not have our limitations, hence you cannot coherently defend God by pointing out human limitations and errors. That's an indictment on God.

Quote:What I have found over the last 5 years of doing this 95% of self proclaimed atheists are atheist because they once believe in a legalistic God, which contradicts The bible description of God and the common sense view of God. So in light of these two contradictions one has grounds to dismiss their legalistic faith.

No, God in any particular definition contradicts. I certainly didn't stop being a Christian because I was a legalist.

Quote:The foolishly proud part of this is, that they believe and never questioned the traditional legalistic view of God they had in the first place. They seem to assume to question whether or not that their former church had the 'correct' version of Christianity, or not would be an 'unforgivable sin.' So even though they claim not to believe in God they 'think' they completely understand Christianity. which ultimatly leads them to believe the no matter their understanding of God, what ever they understood, it was complete. So rather than risk hersey, they just dismissed their faith all together.

Christianity isn't even 'fully' understood by it's adherents. The absolute best you could say is that you believed you had a full understanding of it. And had anyone had a full understanding of it, there wouldn't be the mountain of philosophical problems with it, ones even honest Christian apologists will admit exist. Heck, even the one strictly (for the most part) Christian philosopher I'm somewhat partial to, St. Augustine of Hippo, acknowledged the need to try and tackle these appparent problems with Christianity in his book "City of God" (or maybe it was in "Confessions", I forget).
Further, I never brought up 'unforgivable sins' here, so that's just a red herring fallacy.

Quote:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

The above link is a whole book of the bible that says God lead or guide the Jews.

I was talking about in regards to God's dislike of the ay the Jews practiced, Again, you need to stay in context.

Quote:So again Parting of the red sea, Manta from Heaven, Being lead through the desert by a pillar of fire, plagues, water from rocks, time literally standing still, so a battle could be fought and won in the day light, insanly out number victories, walls of Jericho being destroyed by just marching and trumpet blasts... To you none of this seems God like or Godly?

You seem to have missed the gravity of my point. None of those events had to do with God unambiguously revealing himself and the exact, proper way(s) the Jews should go about religious life. Those might as well have been supernatural parlor tricks, for all relevance they have to God making it impossible to misunderstand what exactly he expected of his people.

Quote:Even if you say No, If you read the book I gave you a link to The people who were apart of those things knew It was God who lead their way, which is why they orginally adopted His laws..

Point? Even if those people knew every relevant thing necessary so as to keep with God's vision of the faith, clearly that failed to propagate, despite God's obvious ability to make it do so.

Quote:But again given a few thousand years and the 'religious/legalists' take what God has given and they pervert it to serve their own purposes.

Because God allowed for it to be possible that such could happen. That has been a main point of mine, which you've repeatedly dodged.

Quote:Who are you to say "we"/Christians don't?

If you're only incontrovertible 'proof' is a personal experience, I've already shown the futility of that non-argument in this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-21738

Quote:I as you can see did not ignore anything. I just did not baby step you through the whole line of thought. For some reason I skiped a step, and thought you could still see it.

No you didn't. You've completely failed to, even in your response to me, in every possible point. For some reason, I thought you would realize the simple demonstration of a contradiction in your reasoning, so I didn't baby step you through the whole line of thought.

(November 20, 2013 at 2:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:No. If God himself did what he wanted to enact, we would have not only a personal relationship with him, we would have direct, incontrovertible proof that would keep us from failing to realize the supposed truth.

Who are you to say "we"/Christians don't?

The fact that you can't convince anyone else, unless you use indoctrination...

(November 20, 2013 at 10:53 am)pocaracas Wrote: Did you, now?
Can you distinguish that from some mental state you may have attained?

Absolutly. I can show an outside influence on my life, that carries me through all of my life's challenges. Meeting and physically speaking with a 'messenger' of God, and with in a 5 to 10 min talk, we discussed only things I knew an never tol anyone, my present situation, and what my future held. (Of which 85 to 90% has happened) to being carried through what was thought (at the time) to be an incurable disease, Helping my wife through a very serious Herion adiction when everyone washed their hands of us, to starting a business with 25K from someone I had met in passing (didn't speak with) one other time before he offered me the money, to growing that business every year in size to buy into a franchise, to being a partner on a corperate level with that brand, to R&D for that company to writting 2 patents and holding/retaining one US patent and looking at 2 more. to opening manifacturing facility of my patented ideas. To a direct relationship with God, that I can ask anything and know without doubt that I receive an answer to my question, petition or prayer.

All of this is what God did for me. Now understand I am nothing special. The only thing that seperates me from any of you is i did what God asks us to do in scripture, and I was faithful to what I was given, and subsequently was given more.

Now before you feel intimidated enough to try and explain away everything written. Understand that I am perfectly aware of the nature of all of the events in my life, and I am well aware that all of these things were/are grounded in a world bound to the laws of physics and can indeed be explained if one were so inclinded. So how is this evidence? It is evidence because the God of this natural world placed these 'natural' processes in motion, and has seen fit to have all of these things come together In my life metered out at just the right time to produce a favoriable result. That is why I can say these events were providential. These events, all of them happened outside of my control. all of them. I had no say or ablity to control anything that I mentioned here. Nor did I deserve any of these things to happen to me good or bad. At each step i was well in over my head and did not have the money, education, or even the wisdom to see my self through any of these events in my life. I simply did not give up, and prayed that I be given the strength to remain faithful.

Quote:Yes, I am a bit clueless as to the actual contents of the story. I know some generalities,

here is a link to when the books were written:http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA176/When-were-the-Bible-books-written
Here is a link to when and how they were compiled: http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

Quote:which may be more than what you know about "quranic History" which I wager you readily dismiss.

There are many different versions and many different version of the History, like the book of mormon it has been amended a few times to fit and correct prophesy. Which history would you be refering to?

Quote:"The witness to the events" who? one of the 12 human proxies? Some other few human proxies?
Allow me not to be amazed by what humans wrote so long ago.

So History in general, what do you think? all crap? After all it was the same humanity who wrote of current events as they remembered them happening.

Quote:Isn't your claim that this god wants me to acknowledge its existence?

Nuup.
Whether you can admit this to yourself or not He has already programmed you with this 'acknoweledgement.' You had to suppress it to get to where your at now.
What God wants is for you to humble yourself before Him and allow Him to lift you up.

Quote:If that's the case, then it will only succeed by direct contact.

That is what the Holy Spirit does. Literally it is direct contact with God. It starts out small and snow balls quickly.

Quote:No faulty, brainwashed, indoctrinated, gullible, delusional human proxies are allowed.
It should be fully aware of that, and still... I get nothing. I get human proxies, like yourself.

My only job is to relay my own experiences and direct those who want to Experience God for themselves.

Quote:Like myself, I'm sure there are many who wait in vain for such a direct contact.

Indeed

Quote:What's the deal? Why do so many wait in vain?

Because God has told 'us' to do XYZ, and most of use do what we want and wait for God to bridge the gap from what He wants to what we want to do.
Imagaine the president of the United States inviting over for a State dinner, and tells you to be at the white house this thrusday at 5 in black tie. what if you showed up on friday at 8 wearing your jam jams and flip flops, what do you think would happen? Would you be welcomed in as a guest of the president? or would you escorted off property?

Why do you think you'd be escorted out? What's the deal? you 'showed up.' You would think the president would understand right?

Of course not. If a man of power tells you to do X to win favor you must do 'X'. How would this differ from the creator of the universe?

Quote:Must I accept the human proxy in order to simply acknowledge the existence of such a god? Does that make sense, to you?

No. you must simply Read your bible or ask a 'proxy' what you must do and then do it.

---

(November 20, 2013 at 3:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 2:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Who are you to say "we"/Christians don't?

The fact that you can't convince anyone else, unless you use indoctrination...

In 2000 years do you truly think no one has been convinced? How about even here in the last 2 years on this web site. There are/were members here that are no longer here because they 'found' what they were A/S/King for.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 10:53 am)pocaracas Wrote: Did you, now?
Can you distinguish that from some mental state you may have attained?

Absolutly. I can show an outside influence on my life, that carries me through all of my life's challenges. Meeting and physically speaking with a 'messenger' of God, and with in a 5 to 10 min talk, we discussed only things I knew an never tol anyone, my present situation, and what my future held. (Of which 85 to 90% has happened) to being carried through what was thought (at the time) to be an incurable disease, Helping my wife through a very serious Herion adiction when everyone washed their hands of us, to starting a business with 25K from someone I had met in passing (didn't speak with) one other time before he offered me the money, to growing that business every year in size to buy into a franchise, to being a partner on a corperate level with that brand, to R&D for that company to writting 2 patents and holding/retaining one US patent and looking at 2 more. to opening manifacturing facility of my patented ideas. To a direct relationship with God, that I can ask anything and know without doubt that I receive an answer to my question, petition or prayer.

All of this is what God did for me. Now understand I am nothing special. The only thing that seperates me from any of you is i did what God asks us to do in scripture, and I was faithful to what I was given, and subsequently was given more.

Now before you feel intimidated enough to try and explain away everything written. Understand that I am perfectly aware of the nature of all of the events in my life, and I am well aware that all of these things were/are grounded in a world bound to the laws of physics and can indeed be explained if one were so inclinded. So how is this evidence? It is evidence because the God of this natural world placed these 'natural' processes in motion, and has seen fit to have all of these things come together In my life metered out at just the right time to produce a favoriable result. That is why I can say these events were providential. These events, all of them happened outside of my control. all of them. I had no say or ablity to control anything that I mentioned here. Nor did I deserve any of these things to happen to me good or bad. At each step i was well in over my head and did not have the money, education, or even the wisdom to see my self through any of these events in my life. I simply did not give up, and prayed that I be given the strength to remain faithful.

Would all of that have happened, had you not believed that a god exists?
Would it have happened, if you believed in some other god? Would you think it was that other god working in your favor instead of the one you think now?

Would it have happened, if you were part of a polytheist religion?

I'd wager "yes" to all questions... and corresponding uselessness of the god assumption.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Yes, I am a bit clueless as to the actual contents of the story. I know some generalities,

here is a link to when the books were written:http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA176/When-were-the-Bible-books-written
Here is a link to when and how they were compiled: http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

Thanks for the links, I'll look into them!

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:which may be more than what you know about "quranic History" which I wager you readily dismiss.

There are many different versions and many different version of the History, like the book of mormon it has been amended a few times to fit and correct prophesy. Which history would you be refering to?

You were talking about some "biblical history"... I just borrowed the expression. You tell me, which history.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:"The witness to the events" who? one of the 12 human proxies? Some other few human proxies?
Allow me not to be amazed by what humans wrote so long ago.

So History in general, what do you think? all crap? After all it was the same humanity who wrote of current events as they remembered them happening.

Not making extraordinary claims about the events... no reason to doubt them... and many such events can be corroborated by archeology, like the great fire of Rome...

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Isn't your claim that this god wants me to acknowledge its existence?

Nuup.
Whether you can admit this to yourself or not He has already programmed you with this 'acknoweledgement.' You had to suppress it to get to where your at now.
What God wants is for you to humble yourself before Him and allow Him to lift you up.

Are you a muslim, now?
They're the ones who think were all born muslims, but are then misled...

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:If that's the case, then it will only succeed by direct contact.

That is what the Holy Spirit does. Literally it is direct contact with God. It starts out small and snow balls quickly.

And yet, i fails on many people... and it leads many people towards the wrong gods... are you sure it's not some mental state of belief in the proxies... leading to belief in the stories?
Like, "I believe my parents for they have no reason to lie to me... they are also right about everything, so they must be right about this god business."

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:No faulty, brainwashed, indoctrinated, gullible, delusional human proxies are allowed.
It should be fully aware of that, and still... I get nothing. I get human proxies, like yourself.

My only job is to relay my own experiences and direct those who want to Experience God for themselves.

And your experiences can all be dismissed as not divine intervention.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:What's the deal? Why do so many wait in vain?

Because God has told 'us' to do XYZ, and most of use do what we want and wait for God to bridge the gap from what He wants to what we want to do.

God told me nothing... People wrote stories about an entity telling them things. It doesn't make it real.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote: Imagaine the president of the United States inviting over for a State dinner, and tells you to be at the white house this thrusday at 5 in black tie. what if you showed up on friday at 8 wearing your jam jams and flip flops, what do you think would happen? Would you be welcomed in as a guest of the president? or would you escorted off property?

Why do you think you'd be escorted out? What's the deal? you 'showed up.' You would think the president would understand right?

Of course not. If a man of power tells you to do X to win favor you must do 'X'. How would this differ from the creator of the universe?

If the president called me, I'd think it was a prank call, at first.
Provided enough assurances, I'd eventually take his invitation seriously.

See how it would take the actual president to contact me?... I see no such thing from your god-thing...

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Must I accept the human proxy in order to simply acknowledge the existence of such a god? Does that make sense, to you?

No. you must simply Read your bible or ask a 'proxy' what you must do and then do it.

And that I just can't accept.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

---

(November 20, 2013 at 3:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: The fact that you can't convince anyone else, unless you use indoctrination...

In 2000 years do you truly think no one has been convinced? How about even here in the last 2 years on this web site. There are/were members here that are no longer here because they 'found' what they were A/S/King for.

Beats me... people who come here already have the concept of god in their minds... how did they come across it? Partial or total indoctrination... Some then lean towards the belief, some towards the disbelief.
In those 2 thousand years... people had been indoctrinated prior to it. If not in the god of the trinity, then in some other god.... with the concept of god changing in people's minds slowly or abruptly by force... indoctrination leads to some belief or another... if that belief becomes shunned, the belief in some other overtakes it, because ignorant people would always require some explanation to keep their minds at ease, to keep them under the influence of some higher power... to... to be sheep.

(November 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Would all of that have happened, had you not believed that a god exists?

There is a difference between simple acknoweledgment, and living your life a certain way because you know something to be true.

My 'belief' in God was like the mustard seed Christ talked about. That is all the faith I had in the beginning. a strong wind could have taken it away. So rather than do that I planted that mustard seed in the things God says to plant them in, and it flourished. Now I can honestly say With every ounce of my being I know God exists and works daily in my life. why? because of all of the things I have witnessed. I can see and even with some marginal accuracy predict how things will play out. Not because I am special or a prophet. i simply know the pattern God uses in my life and i look for it. When I see it I know to either knuckle down or move on. again because after 20+ years even a dullard like myself gets the carrot and the stick method.

Quote:Would it have happened, if you believed in some other god? Would you think it was that other god working in your favor instead of the one you think now? Would it have happened, if you were part of a polytheist religion?

I'd wager "yes" to all questions... and corresponding uselessness of the god assumption.

I tried 'other gods' for a while, and they did not work for me. If they had maybe I would be pushing some other religion, why? Because if I witnessed and experience what I have in Christianity to be true in another religion then that God would have indeed been 'all powerful.'

"A rose by anyother name would still smell just as sweet."-Billy Bard.

In the end understand this is How God offers Proof. Not in one or two instances, but over a life time.

Quote:You were talking about some "biblical history"... I just borrowed the expression. You tell me, which history.

You lost me.

Quote:Not making extraordinary claims about the events... no reason to doubt them... and many such events can be corroborated by archeology, like the great fire of Rome...

Seriously? have you read any ancient text? ANYTHING they could not explain was attributed to some extraordinary claim. especially Egyptian, Greeks and the ancient Chinese. Read how some of their battles were won, or how water was brought to a given city or town, or how leaders came to power. What makes these 'claims' legit is context and how or what they were trying to describe or depict.

Quote:Are you a muslim, now?
They're the ones who think were all born muslims, but are then misled...

In a sence so does Christianity. In that we are all born 'hell bound/insert religion here' and we must elect to receive redemption.

Quote:And yet, i fails on many people... and it leads many people towards the wrong gods... are you sure it's not some mental state of belief in the proxies... leading to belief in the stories?
Like, "I believe my parents for they have no reason to lie to me... they are also right about everything, so they must be right about this god business."

This only works if your 'parents' or whatever source of religion you have substituted for the Holy Spirit was indeed the Holy Spirit trying to mislead you.

Quote:And your experiences can all be dismissed as not divine intervention.

Who said anything about divine intervention? When God clears a path in your life for you to follow because you did what you were asked it is not divine intervention, at that point the happenings you experience is called divine provenance. Because you are following the will/Plan/provenance God has for your life. Why would He then interveene?

Quote:God told me nothing... People wrote stories about an entity telling them things. It doesn't make it real.

What makes a treasure map real? What people may think about it? or whether or not you can use it to find the treasure it says is burried under the "X"? The Same is true with the bible. You can dismiss it, or you can test it, and see if God is waiting where He says He will be waiting for you.

Quote:If the president called me, I'd think it was a prank call, at first.
Provided enough assurances, I'd eventually take his invitation seriously.

You've gotten your call in the bible, I am here to offer what assureances that I have experienced. In the end it is up to you to take him up on His offer or go about your business.

Quote:See how it would take the actual president to contact me?... I see no such thing from your god-thing...

When my wife and I got married we sent the president an invitation. We got back a written response. Do you think He answered personally? Do you think His action contradicted what the written response said His actions were going to be? The answer is No on both accounts. He did exactly what his 'staff' said he was going to do.
Point? There is a proceedure in which one must follow to have the president formally show up to one's wedding, and whether he goes or not, the initial process is still the same.

If you want to be considered by God or even some one as lowly as the President you must approach them through the perscribed Channels. Otherwise why would you expect to have anyone like that bend over backwards for you? Because you think you are entitled? Your entitlement and $5 might buy you a cup of coffie nowadays.

Quote:And that I just can't accept.

Why?

Quote:Beats me... people who come here already have the concept of god in their minds... how did they come across it? Partial or total indoctrination... Some then lean towards the belief, some towards the disbelief.
In those 2 thousand years... people had been indoctrinated prior to it. If not in the god of the trinity, then in some other god.... with the concept of god changing in people's minds slowly or abruptly by force... indoctrination leads to some belief or another... if that belief becomes shunned, the belief in some other overtakes it, because ignorant people would always require some explanation to keep their minds at ease, to keep them under the influence of some higher power... to... to be sheep.

What is the alternitive to being a sheep? It is being a goat. Both are subject to the Shepards Crook, One is favored and one is not.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote: What is the alternitive to being a sheep? It is being a goat. Both are subject to the Shepards Crook, One is favored and one is not.

Um, no. A goat would be subject to a goatherd. The clue's in the name,

Oh, Drich... how many times have we gone through this, on other threads?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Would all of that have happened, had you not believed that a god exists?

There is a difference between simple acknoweledgment, and living your life a certain way because you know something to be true.

My 'belief' in God was like the mustard seed Christ talked about. That is all the faith I had in the beginning. a strong wind could have taken it away. So rather than do that I planted that mustard seed in the things God says to plant them in, and it flourished. Now I can honestly say With every ounce of my being I know God exists and works daily in my life. why? because of all of the things I have witnessed. I can see and even with some marginal accuracy predict how things will play out. Not because I am special or a prophet. i simply know the pattern God uses in my life and i look for it. When I see it I know to either knuckle down or move on. again because after 20+ years even a dullard like myself gets the carrot and the stick method.

Something went right in your life after your attitude towards it changed... perhaps due to your new found belief. Good for you... still not evidence of any exterior force.
Sure, lots of luck... Then you have some 2 million children dying yearly of a curable disease, because.... they're unlucky... Was the mustard's seed not enough for them?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Would it have happened, if you believed in some other god? Would you think it was that other god working in your favor instead of the one you think now? Would it have happened, if you were part of a polytheist religion?

I'd wager "yes" to all questions... and corresponding uselessness of the god assumption.

I tried 'other gods' for a while, and they did not work for me. If they had maybe I would be pushing some other religion, why? Because if I witnessed and experience what I have in Christianity to be true in another religion then that God would have indeed been 'all powerful.'

"A rose by anyother name would still smell just as sweet."-Billy Bard.

In the end understand this is How God offers Proof. Not in one or two instances, but over a life time.

You should have given those other gods a bit more time.
Had you done that, and those lucky things happened in your life... would that mean that those other gods were real? Oh... they would be just different depictions of the one true god, of course... You'd claim them to be the one true god(s). What would that make your current one?... the false one?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:You were talking about some "biblical history"... I just borrowed the expression. You tell me, which history.

You lost me.

I never got you, in the first place, so lets just drop this one...

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Not making extraordinary claims about the events... no reason to doubt them... and many such events can be corroborated by archeology, like the great fire of Rome...

Seriously? have you read any ancient text? ANYTHING they could not explain was attributed to some extraordinary claim. especially Egyptian, Greeks and the ancient Chinese. Read how some of their battles were won, or how water was brought to a given city or town, or how leaders came to power. What makes these 'claims' legit is context and how or what they were trying to describe or depict.

Oh yeah... ALL ancient texts, all ancient stories claim some divine intervention on any and all businesses... [/sarcasm]

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Are you a muslim, now?
They're the ones who think were all born muslims, but are then misled...

In a sence so does Christianity. In that we are all born 'hell bound/insert religion here' and we must elect to receive redemption.

So, are you telling me that, if you raise a child with no concept of a god, with no possible way to acquire that concept from other people, nor books, nor tv, nor the internet... that child will have that concept inbuilt... and it is directed at your particular version of a god?
Somehow, I seriously doubt that.
Not sure if someone has made that experiment, but I'd be interested in knowing the result.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And yet, i fails on many people... and it leads many people towards the wrong gods... are you sure it's not some mental state of belief in the proxies... leading to belief in the stories?
Like, "I believe my parents for they have no reason to lie to me... they are also right about everything, so they must be right about this god business."

This only works if your 'parents' or whatever source of religion you have substituted for the Holy Spirit was indeed the Holy Spirit trying to mislead you.

Are you seriously suggesting that 2/3 of the world's population is being misled by the holy spirit itself?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And your experiences can all be dismissed as not divine intervention.

Who said anything about divine intervention? When God clears a path in your life for you to follow because you did what you were asked it is not divine intervention, at that point the happenings you experience is called divine provenance. Because you are following the will/Plan/provenance God has for your life. Why would He then interveene?

yeah... right... like it was divine provenance that I married a person with the same blood type with me (and, most likely, all my 3 kids) and they will all contribute with some blood when I'm old and feeble and need it...
It can't be just luck...It can't be statistical possibility... actual, given my blood type, it was statistically probable, I just never gave it any thought.
You keep putting your god in the place of dumb luck.
Want to play some poker?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:God told me nothing... People wrote stories about an entity telling them things. It doesn't make it real.

What makes a treasure map real? What people may think about it? or whether or not you can use it to find the treasure it says is burried under the "X"? The Same is true with the bible. You can dismiss it, or you can test it, and see if God is waiting where He says He will be waiting for you.

Ah... but that's the thing. I don't think you found any god. I think you found a mental state which makes you think that a god has been blessing your way... while you were following the book that details how to attain that mental state, in a brilliant insight into human psychology, provided by ancient people.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:If the president called me, I'd think it was a prank call, at first.
Provided enough assurances, I'd eventually take his invitation seriously.

You've gotten your call in the bible, I am here to offer what assureances that I have experienced. In the end it is up to you to take him up on His offer or go about your business.

Ah... the bible. the book.
There are other books, detailing other ways to attain that mental state, some requiring a belief... others not...
Why should I take your book as accurate? Because it worked for you?
How about Abdulah who claims that the qu'ran worked for him? Or Patel who claims the Vedas worked marvelously for him? Or Yan, who claims that Siddhārtha showed him the right way?

So, given all the experiences of different paths to different goals... which can be seen as different expressions of the same mental states... which should I choose? Which is the actual one that details reality?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:See how it would take the actual president to contact me?... I see no such thing from your god-thing...

When my wife and I got married we sent the president an invitation. We got back a written response. Do you think He answered personally? Do you think His action contradicted what the written response said His actions were going to be? The answer is No on both accounts. He did exactly what his 'staff' said he was going to do.
Point? There is a proceedure in which one must follow to have the president formally show up to one's wedding, and whether he goes or not, the initial process is still the same.

If you want to be considered by God or even some one as lowly as the President you must approach them through the perscribed Channels. Otherwise why would you expect to have anyone like that bend over backwards for you? Because you think you are entitled? Your entitlement and $5 might buy you a cup of coffie nowadays.

Are you saying god operates like a human head of government?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And that I just can't accept.

Why?

Because of all the conflicting representations of the divine. I can't chose one. I have no way to chose one. No criteria. Hence, I choose none.
You say "read the bible", abdulah says "read the qu'ran", etc, etc...

I can't accept your version over the other person's...

(November 20, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Beats me... people who come here already have the concept of god in their minds... how did they come across it? Partial or total indoctrination... Some then lean towards the belief, some towards the disbelief.
In those 2 thousand years... people had been indoctrinated prior to it. If not in the god of the trinity, then in some other god.... with the concept of god changing in people's minds slowly or abruptly by force... indoctrination leads to some belief or another... if that belief becomes shunned, the belief in some other overtakes it, because ignorant people would always require some explanation to keep their minds at ease, to keep them under the influence of some higher power... to... to be sheep.

What is the alternitive to being a sheep? It is being a goat. Both are subject to the Shepards Crook, One is favored and one is not.

err... I'd prefer to be a human being. Born of human parents, giving birth to human offspring... the works!

(November 19, 2013 at 12:19 pm)I am God Wrote: In my readings I've come to the conclusion that this myth was created because they needed it to be true.

Who needed it to be true and why, you're generalizing?

Quote:The flash point for the Christian faith are the big four gospels. Everything else flows from this. You can see that Luke and Matthew are full of nonsense and lies. They say Christ was born in Bethlehem when most everywhere else he is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth or the Nazarene.

The Nazarene comes from the OT, seems to put a dent in your thoughts on "it all comes from the Gospels." Have you even read the scriptures, what you have posted begs the question.

Quote:The reason they stopped in Bethlehem was because Joseph was on his way to Bethlehem to take part in a Census that never happened during the governorship of Quirinius who didn't take such a position until 10 YEARS after Herod's death who supposedly tried to kill baby Jesus. None of this matches up at all. So it is clearly a work of fiction. But why?

The Quirinius census has not be worked yet, but as archaeology continues to uncover the past we may find that a census was taken. We have enough info on Herod the Great to know he was more than capable of such an act. So it's not clearly a fictional work far from it. As for your but why, I thought you already had that worked out. Apparently not if you have to ask the question after you've given the answer.

Quote:The answer is because Jesus (the man) failed at the task of being Messiah as it was understood by the Jews (The people that invented the concept of Messiah).

You can prove the Jew's invented the concept of a messiah I take it?

Quote:Messiah was supposed to save Israel and her people. Not figuratively but in real life. He was supposed to be another King David. A ruler that would free the Jews from foreign rule, reestablish the 12 tribes, and be King of Israel and rule by the law of God. Christ did none of this. Israel and their temple were shortly thereafter destroyed.

You do know Jesus gave a prophecy about the Temple being destroyed. You should really read the scriptures and you might learn there are prophecies on Christ's birth, death and resurrection and then His second coming were He returns to lead and establish the new Kingdom.

Quote:Their people all but exterminated.

Really when was this?

Quote: And their culture nearly pounded and lost in the sand forever.

Really when was this?

Quote:So in ever sense of the word Messiah... Jesus failed. So a new concept of Messiah was created.

Really you can bring us some proof of your statement, right?

Quote:One where this kingdom wouldn't be one of this world but in heaven. Where he would save our souls... not our flesh. And Messiah could not be defeated because he could not be killed. To quote Obi Wan Kenobi " If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Jesus said it first, Christ came to save the whole man, not just part, read the scriptures.

Throughout time... people claiming to be Messiah (King of the Jews) were killed by more powerful folks like the Romans or even the Jews themselves. So they needed a bullet proof messiah. One that existed on a plain that couldn't be reached by swords and bows. Being brought back from the dead was a pretty common tale back then. There were other street preachers like Jesus that claimed to be able to raise the dead... and people just took it as a matter of fact because it was a time when people believed in magic and sorcery. Wasn't that impressive of a claim to make back then. It'd be like someone now saying they saw a ghost. People just believe that stuff.
[/quote]

You believe in ghost do you. Seems people were astonished every time Jesus brought someone back from the dead, Lazarus was dead four days, and Christ raise them all body and soul, not just their soul.
Those who claimed they could do not have a following 2000 years later, can you name just one of the fake Jesus.

GC