(November 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm)super spidey man Wrote: Understand that it wasn't written by only one person but by everyone who witnessed it.

Then providing a thousand written testimonies should be a breeze, for you. Can we have those?

Quote:oh and the reason they died was because they claimed Jesus was god and raised from the dead. and people witnessing won't miss that.

Unless they were mistaken, or the number of witnesses and events themselves were exaggerated in order to puff up the religion, or it was fiction, or... any number of things, really. What's your justification for claiming that it all literally happened that way? Do you just believe magic claims, now?

(November 21, 2013 at 7:12 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 21, 2013 at 7:09 pm)super spidey man Wrote: yes, yes I would die for him

Well, there you go...
You cannot be sure about anything concerning this guy.... and yet, you'd die for that...
The very same idiocy patent in the 9/11 idiots and the millennium idiots and any other idiot who'd die for a belief in some sort of after-life.

I'm sure about all of it. Your to blind to see. what do you think happens when you die huh? nothing?

(November 21, 2013 at 7:42 pm)super spidey man Wrote:

(November 21, 2013 at 7:12 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Well, there you go...
You cannot be sure about anything concerning this guy.... and yet, you'd die for that...
The very same idiocy patent in the 9/11 idiots and the millennium idiots and any other idiot who'd die for a belief in some sort of after-life.

I'm sure about all of it. Your to blind to see. what do you think happens when you die huh? nothing?

What does that have to do with anything?

What happens when I die? Beats me... odds are someone else is being born, someone else is also dying, lots of people are having sex, lots of people will be shopping, lots of people will be eating... the Earth will be revolving around the Sun... the moon will be going around the Earth... The Galaxy will be moving at its awesome speed...
What can I say?... lots of things will happen when I die. I'm sure lots of similar, but different things will happen when you die, unless you die exactly at the same time as me...

Why do you say I'm blind?
How did you come to be so sure about you religion?

(November 21, 2013 at 6:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 10:28 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: An oscillating universe, spontaneous generation from pre-existent quantum 'foam', a 4-dimensional block of space-time, another universe that we spawned from via black holes. There are so many possibilities that to say that it's obvious that God had to do it is just the want of an easy, intellectually un-taxing answer.

That's' the science part. Now let 's talk about the similarities between quantum foam and Thomistic 'primal matter' and the formal cause to which it is subject.

...Okay? I don't have any particularly deep knowledge with regard to quantum foam or Thomism, but okay. My general understanding is that it is theorized to not be able to not be there, or thereabouts.

The problem with what you're suggesting is that you have to argue for HOW you know there is a formal cause for the universe's existence. That's no better than William Lane Craig, who's Kalam argument has similar metaphysical cherry-picking of Aristotlean causes (in this case, it inexplicably discounts a material cause).

But you didn't really address what I said. I was listing off some possibilities, none of which I have any particular confidence over the other as being true or more likely. Is there anything in Thomist philosophy that is akin to the B-theory of time's 4D 'block' of tenselessly-existing spacetime?

(November 21, 2013 at 10:55 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: But you didn't really address what I said. I was listing off some possibilities, none of which I have any particular confidence over the other as being true or more likely. Is there anything in Thomist philosophy that is akin to the B-theory of time's 4D 'block' of tenselessly-existing spacetime?

I don't know. It all gets pretty abstract at those levels of inquiry. To my mind quantum foam is similar to primal matter, which has no other quality than the propensity to exist.

(November 21, 2013 at 7:42 pm)super spidey man Wrote: what do you think happens when you die huh? nothing?

The consciousness slips away into nothingness once the brain is dead. There is nothing beyond the one life we experience here.

(November 22, 2013 at 9:01 am)Kitanetos Wrote:

(November 21, 2013 at 7:42 pm)super spidey man Wrote: what do you think happens when you die huh? nothing?

The consciousness slips away into nothingness once the brain is dead. There is nothing beyond the one life we experience here.

wow thats something to look forward to.

I have a friend that used to be an atheist and these are the questions he started to ask himself and realize.

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?
Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?
Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?
Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?
I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote:

(November 22, 2013 at 9:01 am)Kitanetos Wrote: The consciousness slips away into nothingness once the brain is dead. There is nothing beyond the one life we experience here.

wow thats something to look forward to.

Reality doesn't care if you look forward to it or not...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: I have a friend that used to be an atheist and these are the questions he started to ask himself and realize.

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?

Can't understand the second question...

The first, yes, I heard about god. I heard about Allah, I heard about Thor, I heard about Shiva, I heard about Athena, I heard about Jupiter, I heard about the great turtle...
Should I accept them all?
Or look hard at the reality I have in front of me and come to my own realization, because it's obvious that either only one is right, or all are wrong... And all share that human quality of "wishful thinking"...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?

LOL.
The existence of an entity is a scientific issue.
True, the belief in that sort of entity does aid in some psychological problems... but that doesn't mean that the entity exists.

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?

Have you read the Vedas? the Egyptian book of the dead? the Qu'ran?
Why should your version of the divine be the one that's right?
What is love?... something very complex I can't answer in a single line, so... you get complex psychological state of fondness towards another human being.
Do I have free will? As far as I can tell, the brain works in a deterministically fashion... mind you, I'm not saying that it does, I'm just saying that based on all the available evidence, there a clear hint towards that conclusion.... so, ultimately, no we don't have free will.... however, in the immense complexity involved in the thinking process, we have the illusion of free will.
Can you honestly say that, given the same set of circumstances, the same prior knowledge, the same physical ability... at any time in your life... would you have acted differently from what you did?
Are some things always wrong?... "2+2=3" is always wrong, unless you redefine 3...so even that can't follow the rule of "always".

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?

Reality doesn't give a damn about the individual's hope...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

I didn't decide to be an atheist...
I simply realized that reality is at odds with religion...
And I think reality is better than human wishful thinking.

(November 22, 2013 at 10:15 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: wow thats something to look forward to.

Reality doesn't care if you look forward to it or not...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: I have a friend that used to be an atheist and these are the questions he started to ask himself and realize.

Will you be able to say you heard there may be a loving God that promises eternal life for all who accept His sacrifice and grace? Then having heard that, will you be able to say you decided to take a long hard look at the for the answer?

Can't understand the second question...

The first, yes, I heard about god. I heard about Allah, I heard about Thor, I heard about Shiva, I heard about Athena, I heard about Jupiter, I heard about the great turtle...
Should I accept them all?
Or look hard at the reality I have in front of me and come to my own realization, because it's obvious that either only one is right, or all are wrong... And all share that human quality of "wishful thinking"...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you realized the issue of God is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one?

LOL.
The existence of an entity is a scientific issue.
True, the belief in that sort of entity does aid in some psychological problems... but that doesn't mean that the entity exists.

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you asked yourself what is love? Do I have free will? Are some things always wrong? Then aside from the answers to those questions making it at least possible what you’ve heard is true, have you read the Gospels?

Have you read the Vedas? the Egyptian book of the dead? the Qu'ran?
Why should your version of the divine be the one that's right?
What is love?... something very complex I can't answer in a single line, so... you get complex psychological state of fondness towards another human being.
Do I have free will? As far as I can tell, the brain works in a deterministically fashion... mind you, I'm not saying that it does, I'm just saying that based on all the available evidence, there a clear hint towards that conclusion.... so, ultimately, no we don't have free will.... however, in the immense complexity involved in the thinking process, we have the illusion of free will.
Can you honestly say that, given the same set of circumstances, the same prior knowledge, the same physical ability... at any time in your life... would you have acted differently from what you did?
Are some things always wrong?... "2+2=3" is always wrong, unless you redefine 3...so even that can't follow the rule of "always".

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: Have you read the great (Atheist) existentialist philosophers that raise issues of moral relativism and the hopelessness of atheism?

Reality doesn't give a damn about the individual's hope...

(November 22, 2013 at 9:39 am)super spidey man Wrote: I ask all those things as your answer because according to scripture, we are each responsible to search for the truth. If we decide to be Atheist simply because Penn Jillette (I’m not at all implying this is you) is atheist and he seems cool, we are responsible for that.
BTW, I’m not saying you haven’t done these things, I’m asking you. I'm asking because it’s a path that I’ve found very enlightening.

I didn't decide to be an atheist...
I simply realized that reality is at odds with religion...
And I think reality is better than human wishful thinking.

There is obviously a god. Have you read all those different religions you mentioned. Maybe you need to start researching them and see which one makes the most sense. And How the bible and Christianity is totally different. You at least have to see that there is a god that created everything. look around you. This did not happen by itself. something had to start it somewherre. going back to the original post about the big bang. doesn't matter if there is a infinity universes which I doubt but something(creator) had to have created it.

How and why?