(November 27, 2013 at 10:26 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

Do you understand how many of us are former believers? My girl Luckie once turned down life-saving medical treatment in favor of prayer, so let's not characterize this as something atheists have never done. That's just another version of the same "the only reason you don't agree with me is because you're ignorant or unwilling to try," routine that we hear over and over.

xpastor Wrote:Still not getting it are you?

Lion IRC Wrote:The point is that if I lived in in Ur/Iraq or Bethlehem/Palestine in that case THEN I might be accused of adopting the culturally relevant religion.

But Jews in New York and Jews in Palestine live in vastly different cultures and yet they have the same ancient neolithic religion.

I didn't 'adopt' Abrahamic monotheism.
ABRAHAM did!
He is the cause and he is about as far away from me in distance and antiquity as you can get.

In terms of post modern culture - media, music, cuisine, Internet, commerce, zeitgeist, etc. - I am culturally closer to the atheists around here, than I am to Isaac or Ishmael.

You are still obfuscating ... or maybe obtuscating. Loftus does not say that people adopt a faith because they live in cultural conditions replicating those of the early days of that faith....

No need to tell me what what he does 'not' say. We are discussing what he DID say.
And my point is that the cultural conditions can vary dramatically in various places around the world and yet people - ie. Jews and Muslims and Christians can nonetheless still have the same religion as people on the other side of the world.
AND the same religion as people who lived thousands of years ago in the time of Moses and Jesus and Abraham etc.

xpastor Wrote:...BTW, as for "neolithic religion" the conventional dates for Abraham and Moses put them well within the Bronze Age, if they existed.

How about Ham and Shem and Japheth? How about Job? How about Methuselah? How about all the monotheists who lived long before Abraham?

I worship the same God they did.

(November 27, 2013 at 10:43 pm)Zazzy Wrote: ** Edit- I know you've been told time and time again that atheists are atheists because they have no beliefs in deities, not because they believe something, but I see you still need to throw that out there. Nevertheless, I'll try a prayer.

Sincerely, that's all I was asking for.

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(November 28, 2013 at 1:02 am)Esquilax Wrote: Do you understand how many of us are former believers? My girl Luckie once turned down life-saving medical treatment in favor of prayer, so let's not characterize this as something atheists have never done. That's just another version of the same "the only reason you don't agree with me is because you're ignorant or unwilling to try," routine that we hear over and over.

I really do not mean some of the stuff that you assume that I mean.

I do not think of you as ignorant, Esquilax. You present yourself as a level head that is genuinely thoughtful. I have debated with you over morals and, based on your ardor in that arena, I would guess that you put a lot of weight on and consideration into being a good person.

I am merely suggesting that we all have the responsibility to continue to challenge ourselves and our beliefs everyday. It is one thing to stay open to the truth. It is a completely different thing to get a glimpse of it and fail to clamp down hard on it when it comes around.

(November 28, 2013 at 2:08 am)Lion IRC Wrote: And my point is that the cultural conditions can vary dramatically in various places around the world and yet people - ie. Jews and Muslims and Christians can nonetheless still have the same religion as people on the other side of the world.

You've either missed the point or are wilfully ignoring it. A vast majority of people with religious beliefs have the beliefs that were prevalent during their up-bringing.

Quote:AND the same religion as people who lived thousands of years ago in the time of Moses and Jesus and Abraham etc.

Actually, that's the subject of some debate.

Quote:How about Ham and Shem and Japheth? How about Job? How about Methuselah? How about all the monotheists who lived long before Abraham?

This too, is far from certain. There are many good reasons to think that they were polytheists, or at least henotheists.

(November 27, 2013 at 10:26 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

You seem blissfully unaware that many atheists, perhaps the vast majority, are ex-theists. Some became atheists from reading the Bible, and others, I doubt not, from practicing prayer and finding it did not work.

I agree that atheists should be willing to examine arguments against atheism. But what about you? Have you examined your beliefs skeptically the way a Buddhist or a Muslim or an atheist would look at them, or did you just shoot back a response?

(November 28, 2013 at 5:33 am)GodsRevolt Wrote:

(November 27, 2013 at 10:43 pm)Zazzy Wrote: ** Edit- I know you've been told time and time again that atheists are atheists because they have no beliefs in deities, not because they believe something, but I see you still need to throw that out there. Nevertheless, I'll try a prayer.

Sincerely, that's all I was asking for.

So this morning, I got up, went outside, watched the rising sun, and said this:
"God, if you're there, please help my cousin to overcome her cancer. She's suffering and scared, and I pray for her pain and fear to be less, because even though she's annoying, I love her."

I forgot the "Amen," though, so I'll add it here.

Is that a proper prayer, or did I screw it up?

(November 26, 2013 at 1:15 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Abraham was born in Ur.
Moses was born in Egypt.

Those are the places where my religion comes from - not the place where I WAS BORN.

Missing the point (over and over).

Nobody is claiming that. Re-read the OP.

What is being claimed, however, is that the cultural [and religious] context into which you are born is a factor that dictates what religion you will end up espousing.

So, yes, de facto Christianity may have been started a couple of thousand years ago in a geographical locations thousands of miles away.

But then again, there are Hindu families in East London who give birth to children who, through some sort of miraculous feat, end up being Hindu's, despite the fact they've never once been the place where their religion supposedly began.

Hmm...Can you see the point yet?

What about this. There are very few white Christian families in central Birmingham that end up having children who end up with Hindu beliefs.

You don't need to respond to this.

(November 27, 2013 at 10:26 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

Prayer's icky.

And that makes about as much sense as giving geocentrism a try.

(November 28, 2013 at 7:29 am)xpastor Wrote: You seem blissfully unaware that many atheists, perhaps the vast majority, are ex-theists. Some became atheists from reading the Bible, and others, I doubt not, from practicing prayer and finding it did not work.

I agree that atheists should be willing to examine arguments against atheism. But what about you? Have you examined your beliefs skeptically the way a Buddhist or a Muslim or an atheist would look at them, or did you just shoot back a response?

I know you and many others may not believe me, but I lived as an atheist for several years, from sixth grade through most of college. Does that count?

I am here because I can't seem to stop testing my faith, and it has been tested here. I have heard some great arguments, and they have revealed things to me that I have not noticed about my faith or haven't looked at from that view in a long while.

For instance, I took that test that you posted, "What do you really know about the Bible?" Honestly, I have never been a big reader of the bible and I did horribly!

But I looked up some of the passages that the test referenced and have since learned a lot more about it all.

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(November 28, 2013 at 9:26 am)Zazzy Wrote: So this morning, I got up, went outside, watched the rising sun, and said this:
"God, if you're there, please help my cousin to overcome her cancer. She's suffering and scared, and I pray for her pain and fear to be less, because even though she's annoying, I love her."

I forgot the "Amen," though, so I'll add it here.

Is that a proper prayer, or did I screw it up?

Zazzy, you are awesome! Rising sun and everything!

As far as you screwing it up, only you can say if you gave a genuine go or not.

I'd also like to add here that prayer does not always have to be about asking for something. It can be thanks or just meditation on God.

Either way, kudos!

@Lion IRC If you're saying that Judaism has remained the same since Abraham and Moses (the latter of whom most likely did not exist), then you're full of it. Particularly so since the Israelites and their descendants were, for centuries, polytheists. In their pantheon of gods, Yahweh wasn't even supreme. Yahweh had a wife. Heck, the god the Bible describes Abraham making his sort of central god (called 'El Shaddai') is quite likely a theonym for the supreme god in that religion, El Elyon.