This is getting really sad now, the thread is going no where. I think it's about time this thread died.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:30 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: This is getting really sad now, the thread is going no where. I think it's about time this thread died.

It was there long ago.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:13 am)enrico Wrote:

(November 25, 2013 at 12:34 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: There are many spiritualist "cures" for ailments, none of which can be shown to have any effect beyond being a placebo.

No wonder that they are not working.
The reason is that they have little to do with spirituality.
I have seen people who look at crystal for hours hoping to sort out their problems.
I have seen religious people who say that they are engaged in spirituality not having a clue what spirituality is and so on.
The list is infinite and goes on for ever.
Spirituality is the effort to grasp the knowledge, the wisdom and the pleasure that lie within and that can only be achieved by working very hard and the best way is through intuitive science although there are different ways.

Fanstastic! We now have a "no true spiritualist" argument.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:13 am)enrico Wrote: I do believe in medical science.
I wouldn't go to see my doctor time to time otherwise but that is not the point.
We are talking about solving problem for good not putting bags of sand there were the water spill to see the problem recur elsewhere.

Great, I'm still waiting on the evidence that backs up this claim.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:13 am)enrico Wrote: You have seen that!
I have seen every single working day countless people chocking up the health system and i have seen countless of people out in the community unable to send their dear one in rehab. centers or nursing home because there is no vacant beds or because it cost a lot of money to get in.

I've already refuted that. Show me why I'm wrong or stop making the claim.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:13 am)enrico Wrote:

(November 25, 2013 at 12:34 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Do you have anything to show that there is, or at least could be, such a thing as you're suggesting (a sort of "disease equilibrium", for want of a better term)?

In the past obesity and diabetes were the diseases of the rich, today they are the disease of the middle class as well as the rich.
Dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases are totally out of control.
No cure so far.
These are just the spills that occur when you fix the problem elsewhere.

Right, that does absolutely nothing to back up your claim. All you have done is repeat the claim, I have already told you why I believe your claim to be without merit. Oh, and obesity is not a fucking disease.

(November 28, 2013 at 11:13 am)enrico Wrote: So who is the delusional and who is the wise?

Well if you have to ask........

(November 28, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Great, I'm still waiting on the evidence that backs up this claim.
I've already refuted that. Show me why I'm wrong or stop making the claim.
Right, that does absolutely nothing to back up your claim. All you have done is repeat the claim, I have already told you why I believe your claim to be without merit.

You refute absolutely nothing.
When the hospital the rehab. centers the nursing homes and by the way even the jails will be under control then you will be able to say that medical science has defeated physical and mental diseases.
But that will only happen when all 3 horses are fed properly so the cart of progress can go straight.
At the moment it proceede like a zombie.

(November 29, 2013 at 8:54 am)enrico Wrote: You refute absolutely nothing.
When the hospital the rehab. centers the nursing homes and by the way even the jails will be under control then you will be able to say that medical science has defeated physical and mental diseases.
But that will only happen when all 3 horses are fed properly so the cart of progress can go straight.
At the moment it proceede like a zombie.

At no point have I claimed that medical science has "defeated" physical and mental diseases. I claimed that the number of hospital beds per capita has decreased, leading to an overcrowding of hospital beds.

Here's a report detailing the decrease in mortality rates per capita over the 20th century.

Trends in infectious disease mortality in the US during the 20th century

Quote:Infectious disease mortality declined during the first 8 decades of the 20th century from 797 deaths per 100000 in 1900 to 36 deaths per 100000 in 1980. From 1981 to 1995, the mortality rate increased to a peak of 63 deaths per 100000 in 1995 and declined to 59 deaths per 100000 in 1996. The decline was interrupted by a sharp spike in mortality caused by the 1918 influenza epidemic. From 1938 to 1952, the decline was particularly rapid, with mortality decreasing 8.2% per year.

Do you have any data/evidence to back up your assertions?

(November 29, 2013 at 5:06 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: At no point have I claimed that medical science has "defeated" physical and mental diseases. I claimed that the number of hospital beds per capita has decreased, leading to an overcrowding of hospital beds.
Here's a report detailing the decrease in mortality rates per capita over the 20th century.

You want to be silly do you?
First you talk about infectious diseases only then you take what happen only in America.
That PER CAPITA remind me something very funny.
When they talk about whether a country is rich or not they say......the country per capita whealth is such and such.
According to these idiots every person in the country suppose to share this wealth when in reality probably 90% of the wealth is own by 2 or 3% of the people.
To really measure the wealth of a country it should be taken in consideration mainly the purchasing power not the per capita.
Something similar in a sense should be apply to medical health.
When we want to know the real situation we should take in consideration the GLOBAL situation not just America where many people can delay the inevitable by chemotherapie, insulin or other means.
By the way malaria which is the N. 1 killer globaly speaking has no cure and so dementia, Parkinson, Alzaheimer and diabetes just to mention the few so where this great medical science is?

(November 30, 2013 at 1:08 pm)enrico Wrote: You want to be silly do you?
First you talk about infectious diseases only then you take what happen only in America.
That PER CAPITA remind me something very funny.
When they talk about whether a country is rich or not they say......the country per capita whealth is such and such.
According to these idiots every person in the country suppose to share this wealth when in reality probably 90% of the wealth is own by 2 or 3% of the people.
To really measure the wealth of a country it should be taken in consideration mainly the purchasing power not the per capita.
Something similar in a sense should be apply to medical health.
When we want to know the real situation we should take in consideration the GLOBAL situation not just America where many people can delay the inevitable by chemotherapie, insulin or other means.

Wow, that's some great evidence you presented.

"Delaying the inevitable" is exactly what I've been talking about: people are living longer. This is reducing annual mortality rates, increasing population size and reducing the ratio of hospital beds to people.

Quote:By the way malaria which is the N. 1 killer globaly speaking has no cure and so dementia, Parkinson, Alzaheimer and diabetes just to mention the few so where this great medical science is?

It took me less time to find the answer to that question than it took you to write it. These are just the first results that came up for each:

Alzheimer's breakthrough

Parkinson's breakthrough

First malaria vaccine

New hope for a type 1 diabetes cure

Medical science (like all science) is exactly where it's always been: on the forefront of human knowledge and constantly pushing back the boundaries of what is possible.

Now how about you actually back up your assertions?

(November 30, 2013 at 8:03 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Wow, that's some great evidence you presented. "Delaying the inevitable" is exactly what I've been talking about: people are living longer. This is reducing annual mortality rates, increasing population size and reducing the ratio of hospital beds to people.

The evidence is that.........
1) You keep on talking about the rich countries where many people can afford to delay the inevitable and not the global situation in which 80-90% of the people can not and die in the gutter.
2) Delaying the inevitable does not solve any problem either because they live a life of shit or because they carry on the present problem in a future life as they are not changing the way they live eliminating in this way the cause that produce the effect.
3) Medical science is mainly concerned about studying and eliminate the effect and very little about finding out what cause these effect.
4) Saturated fats and toxins are the main causes of too many diseases but you will find that most doctors will tell you that meat and eggs are ok. so when people are put on the wrong path it will be very difficult to see improvement in health.

Quote:It took me less time to find the answer to that question than it took you to write it. These are just the first results that came up for each:

A RESULT is when you sort of find a permanent solution to a certain problem.
But NO.
These are just research made on mice.
They may be promising as much as you want but until they come up with a PERMANENT solution then they are like farts.
Have you got an idea how many times medical science said that they found the cure for malaria?
So many times that i can't keep up the count.
It work for a while and then the mosquitoes come up with a different system so the research continue for ever and ever.
They give hope and make you feel better but the problem stay until the solution is found.
Soon or later they will find a solution of course but the real problem can not be eliminated until you feed the 3 horses that are within (physical, mental and spiritual).

Quote:Medical science (like all science) is exactly where it's always been: on the forefront of human knowledge and constantly pushing back the boundaries of what is possible.
Now how about you actually back up your assertions?

The boundaries of what is possible.
Not really.
Medical science without spirituality can not do that at the moment as it works in an arena in which the positive and the negative balance always each other.
The day that spirituality will be taken in the proper account the we will see real progress.
Why?
Because unlike the physical and mental aspect spirituality does not come with the negative side.

The important reason for me is knowledge of the secret Atheist secrets and fear of sucky snozzles. I've seen an Atheist who wavered and the team that comes around with that vacuum thing to remove the knowledge. I tried to talk to him after the extraction, he didn't make any sense. Whether that was due entirely to his new found belief or to do with the extraction process I don't know.

I have a theory. This thread actually is dead but it's haunted by enrico's ghost. I say we board the sucker up.