I think I said quite clearly I want one that states people of different nationality and religions have equal rights and verses that states so EXPLICITLY.

None of the verses you provided says anything about nationality and religion.

I say this because your religion has tribal beginnings that includes going to war and conquering nations that hold different beliefs or are of different nationalities. I also want to remind you that when the qur'an talks about being just, it's talking about shariah (yes?), and shariah does not function on the assumption that humans have equal rights. As you have so clearly confirmed with the case of women (2 women are only worth 1 man in terms of testimony).

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

You see why I ask for one that says people who follow other religions and are of other nationalities are equal.

Did someone say "roast"?

Remind me again what the usual punishment is for apostasy in Islam? It's good to see how tolerant and respectful a religion is when we consider the way it treats those who have left the faith. You weren't born a Muslim, you were brainwashed as one from a young age, and by insisting that you will die a Muslim is your admission that you aren't interested in seeking truth at all, merely maintaining a dogmatic and irrational belief system despite overwhelming evidence demonstrating otherwise.

Again I reiterate:


If Muslim countries actually kept records of literacy rates, it would be very interesting to see the proportion of women who can (or rather, cannot) read and write. UN estimates for countries such as Afghanistan are pitifully low, and even the wealthiest of the gulf states are some of the most oppressive. Why do you subscribe to an ancient religion that is based on a glaringly obvious fraud and that treats you like a piece of shit? Do you not think it coincidental that your religion is tailored towards archaic notions of the family unit and gender functions, and that it was written by a MAN? How long can you go on telling yourself that your religion actually places any value on you other than your reproducing and cooking potential?

In my home, my partner (a woman) is the bread winner (she is a biomedical scientist). I also do most of the cooking in the home. Normally this doesn't even merit discussion because it's not unusual, I don't even think about it normally because clearly it causes no problems. With capitalism aside, does it not strike you as bizarre that even the wealthiest Muslim country doesn't even come close with its economic or cultural development to most European or other developed countries? Employment rights, gender rights, opportunities in the business and in the arts - The Islamic world lags behind in every field, and has made next to no contributions to the world of science or medicine in decades. Don't you realise it's because you let men run your shit for all the wrong reasons. You ARE oppressed.

(November 29, 2013 at 10:26 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: I think I said quite clearly I want one that states people of different nationality and religions have equal rights and verses that states so EXPLICITLY.

None of the verses you provided says anything about nationality and religion.

I say this because your religion has tribal beginnings that includes going to war and conquering nations that hold different beliefs or are of different nationalities. I also want to remind you that when the qur'an talks about being just, it's talking about shariah (yes?), and shariah does not function on the assumption that humans have equal rights. As you have so clearly confirmed with the case of women (2 women are only worth 1 man in terms of testimony).

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

You see why I ask for one that says people who follow other religions and are of other nationalities are equal.

All the verses which I gave defends equality and justice for "ALL" human beings . This looks like I say I love animals , and you ask me "rabbits too ?" , and again I say I love all animals , and you ask me "kangaroos ?"

2:190 : "You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors."

2:191 "...kill them whereever you find them , thus is the reward of the kafirin , know that "Fitnah" is worse than being killed , thus is the reward of the "kafirin."

2:192 "And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful."

2:193 "You may also fight them to eliminate "fitnah" , and to worship GOD freely."


Fitnah : Persecution, oppression .
Kafir : Those who hides the truth , makes hostility against muslims .



4:89 "They hope that you would reject as they rejected, then you would be the same. Do not take any of them as "evliaye" in the cause of God. If they revert to enmity , then take them and kill them where you find them; and do not take from them any "evliyae"."

Evliyae : Ally , supporter ... , not friend , the word friend in arabic is "sadiq".

4:104 Do not falter in the pursuit of the remaining group. If you are feeling pain, then they are also feeling pain as you are; and you seek from God what they do not seek. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.


8:12 Your Lord inspired to the angels: "I am with you so keep firm those who acknowledge. I will cast fear into the hearts of "kafirun" ; so strike above the necks , and strike every finger."


8:15 "O you who acknowledge; when you encounter "kafirun" on the battlefield, do not flee from them."


8:39 "You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do"


60:8 "God does not forbid you from those who have not fought you because of your system/religion, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable."

60:9 "But God does forbid you regarding those who fought you because of your system/religion, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors."


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now , maybe this will help more .

Sorry I have to go out , salaam ...

So at most we could say there are some verses that are tolerant and other verses that are deeply intolerant and promote violence against the non believer? Sounds to me like.....CONTRADICTIONS.

(November 29, 2013 at 12:06 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: How can you not understand what I'm saying? Yes, I know a lot of muslims will happily quote verses that state "everyone" and ignore those verses in the book that says to treat nonbelievers DIFFERENTLY than believers which is why I ask for one that says all religions are ok. Which you have not provided. If you're wondering, I have had many muslims tell me when the qur'an refers to people, they refer to muslims, unless clearly stated.

So 2x2= 4 , but you're ready to believe if some mathematicians says it can be 5 . You dont need to use your logic or you just dont want to use your logic , because it works for you when you dont use you logic .

(November 29, 2013 at 12:06 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Ok, I admit that the first verse changes the situation, and when attacked self defence is justified. But you still need to address several issues:

According to wikipedia, fitnah means persecution/testing of one's faith, and that's also the meaning I'm more familiar with. So in other words, kill those who pose a challenge your faith?

Again from wiki: Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is a denigrating Arabic term used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever," "disbeliever," or "infidel." The term refers to a person who rejects God in Islam or who hides, denies, or covers the "Islamic version of truth." The practise of declaring another Muslim as a kafir is takfir.

Again the one I'm more familiar with. Which translation says it means being hostile to muslims? That's also pretty ambiguous, there are muslims who think that saying muhammed isn't a prophet is being hostile. You are saying whoever believes something else other than what you believe to be true should have death as a reward.

And yet you said that people of all religions are equal. How are they equal if they believe a different truth and according to the qur'an, deserve death? Even if you don't believe in initiating the conflict, it's quite clear that they should be treated differently because of their believes.

You should use Arabic dictionaries , especially the old ones , or you can research in Arabic websites . in Quran , Allah calls satan as kafir. Satan knows Allah but still makes hostility and try to drag people in abuse . So here you can easly understand that "kafir" does not mean "non-believer" or "un-believer" .

(November 29, 2013 at 12:06 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: How can you be someone's friend if you're not their ally and supporter?! Again another verse that explicitly states that nonbelievers are to be treated differently.

what is meant here is to trust people blindly . The word evliaye is used for only very respectable islamic scholars . I have never heard anywhere else . So this is not a simple friendship , much more . Another point is verse does not say "dont be evliaye with them" , it says "dont make them evliaye for yourself" . So dont accept them as idols for yourself . Clearly Allah doesnt want muslims to being away from islamic values and close to the others .

(November 29, 2013 at 12:06 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: I think this seals my point. Religion is for your god alone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a kafir. Who according to previous verses, deserve death.

Ok, I found a verse that talks about killing a believer, and it shows clearly how it's different even when the believer is being hostile, they get better treatment:
4:92: It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood-money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

It does not say the believer deserves to die. So clearly everything said regarding a hostile nonbeliever is not because they're being hostile, but because they're nonbelievers. Because when it comes to hostile believer, you must set free a believing slave to atone for what you have done. Oh, and note how your people used to keep slaves, again with the human rights issue and equality issue, you cannot have equality if you own slaves.

You dont have an objective perspective . But thanks you for letting me different perspectives which I have never looked at . Verse says a mumin isnt going to kill a mumin . Why you kill a person ? for example he/she want to kill you or another innocent person and such a person cannot be a "mumin". Can you understand what I mean ? Sorry for my english .

(November 29, 2013 at 12:06 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: 60:10: O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: Allah knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them. But pay the Unbelievers what they have spent (on their dower), and there will be no blame on you if ye marry them on payment of their dower to them. But hold not to the guardianship of unbelieving women: ask for what ye have spent on their dowers, and let the (Unbelievers) ask for what they have spent (on the dowers of women who come over to you). Such is the command of Allah: He judges (with justice) between you. And Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.


Again, different treatment for unbelievers compared to believers, this is what the qur'an considers justice. That's what I was trying to say a couple of posts ago, when the qur'an uses words like justice and equity, it has a different meaning than what we take them to mean today.


Oh, and I appreciate the effort you put into this conversation.

Didnt understand what is the problem with verse 60:10 . A women want muslims to accept her and muslims accept her .

The fact that the Muslim brotherhood wanted to install Sharia for Muslims and christian law for coptics in Egypt is proof if proof need be that Sharia makes great distinctions between the rights and allowances of believers vs non-believers. What a good way to run a nation; umpteen different rules for different groups of people. Democracy, yeah!

No reasonable muslim supports Sharia, though.