(November 30, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Really? So islamic governments don't dictate rules according to their religion or allow clerics to influence government decisions?

Yes , if they're secular islamic .

(November 30, 2013 at 6:27 pm)Nineteen Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Really? So islamic governments don't dictate rules according to their religion or allow clerics to influence government decisions?

Yes , if they're secular islamic .

There is no such thing.

(November 30, 2013 at 5:53 pm)Nineteen Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 4:54 pm)WesOlsen Wrote: ....who wants to leave Islam is sentenced to death (the penalty for apostasy in your peaceful and tolerant religion). Islam doesn't ask people to use their logic ....

There is no such a rule in islam as killing apostates .

Again you dont use your logic .

Quran says "there is no compulsion in religion"

and an hadith says "muslims have right to kill apostates"

This is ridiculous , does not matter what aspect you look at it . So we have words of God/Allah/Jehovah and he says there is no compusion , and in other hand there is a hadith or in another words "story" or "fairy tale" that says kill apostates . Why dont you query this ? If prophet wanted muslims to kill apostates why he didnt write that in Quran , because people would take it more seriously if it was written in quran
(its written by prophet according to atheist logic )

There are hadiths that the prophet want muslims to save non-muslims and want muslims to be nice with non-muslims . So this fairy tales contradict with each other , but you choose the bad one , because you want to believe in bad one , you cant be objective , being objective will always cause you to lose .

I can list many more things , why dont you question these ... Because you will understand that Quran is right if you do that and you choose to bury your head in the sand .

Bye ...

Bolding mine. WHAT?

And don't speak for Islam as if you have the ultimate authority, it's an outright lie to say Islam doesn't say you cannot kill apostates when there are so so many muslims who do believe in the hadith and believe that you can kill apostates. You do not represent the entirety of your religion, to pretend that you do is dishonest. You can choose not to defend their stance and condemn their stance but it's another thing to say Islam doesn't do this.

(November 30, 2013 at 11:22 am)Nineteen Wrote: Beucase Quran is written with perfect arabic and it was given to Arabs at Arabic literature's most brilliant period .

Ah... this argument...
I'd like to point out a bit of information you may be lacking.
English has a series of words to describe particular kinds of rain.... why? because Britain gets to have a lot of rain, in many different forms, so you get drizzle, pouring, downpour, hail, mizzle, serein, shower, sleet... etc...
The Inuit are claimed to also have a bunch of words for different kinds of ice...
And so on and so forth... vocabulary evolves according to the locations and the habits of the people.
Arabic is rich in some things, no doubt. English is rich in other things, Chinese is rich in other things, etc..

There is a portuguese book, written in the XVI century, called "Os Lusíadas", translated, it seems, to "The Lusiads".
Since I don't know these terms in english, I'll just copy the wiki:

wiki Wrote:The poem consists of ten cantos, with a variable number of stanzas (1102 in total), written in the decasyllabic ottava rima, which has the rhyme scheme ABABABCC.

1102 stanzas ALL rhyming in the same scheme ABABABCC!! ALL decassylabic (that means each verse has ten syllables)!!!! That's truly a work of art. Inspired by the muses (he says so in the poem itself).

How is you qu'ran so different? It doesn't keep the rhymes throughout the text. It doesn't keep syllables... it's a mess... and way too repetitive...

and full of shit

(November 30, 2013 at 6:32 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Bolding mine. WHAT?

And don't speak for Islam as if you have the ultimate authority, it's an outright lie to say Islam doesn't say you cannot kill apostates when there are so so many muslims who do believe in the hadith and believe that you can kill apostates. You do not represent the entirety of your religion, to pretend that you do is dishonest. You can choose not to defend their stance and condemn their stance but it's another thing to say Islam doesn't do this.

I'm a muslim , so I believe in "La ilaha illallah" so it means "there is no god but Allah".

and my god says in 7:185 "Do they not look at the dominion of heavens and earth, and all that God has created, and perhaps their time is drawing near? In which hadith after this one will they acknowledge?"

and he says in 12:111 "In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It is not a hadith that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present, a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who acknowledge"

and he says in 31:6 "Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution."

and he says in 45:6 "These are God's signs that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and His signs, do they acknowledge?"

and he says in 77:50 "So in what hadith after it will they acknowledge?"

and he says in 6:116 "If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess."

and he says in 2:256 "There is no compulsion in the system.."

and he says in 16:125 "Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner.."


and he says in 50:45 "We are totally aware of what they say, and you are not to be a tyrant over them. So remind with the Quran those who fear My promise."



and he says in 10:99 "And had your Lord willed, all the people on Earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?"

and he says in 109:1-6 "Say them "To you is your religion/system, and to me is mine.""

and he says in 88:22 and 88:21 "So remind, for you are but a reminder, you have no power over them."




and he says in 12:104 "And you do not ask them for a wage for it, it is but a reminder to the worlds."



Now , can you see ? My GOD says that there is no compulsion and one fairy tale that is not known invented by whom says "kill apostates".

So which one I have to believe , ofcourse I will believe in my GOD .


Your hate makes you blind .

Nineteen, imagine, if you can, the possibility that there is no god, that your god was made up, that those sentences were made up by people, for people. Imagine you have been deceived to believe in the existence of that god. Imagine. Just picture it in your mind.

Now, all those sentences were not spoken nor written by a god...they were spoken by a man.

Keep imagining what you would think of someone who believed in that god... and tell me...

The fact that you think I hate you is actually making you blind.

I did not say what your god says, I said what you religion practices. So don't twist things around, you may believe your god says A, there are plenty who believe your god says B and you come here and claim that no, everyone agrees with you, Islam doesn't say B. You can believe what you like, but you don't get to lie about other people's beliefs. Get it?

(November 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Nineteen, imagine, if you can, the possibility that there is no god, that your god was made up, that those sentences were made up by people, for people. Imagine you have been deceived to believe in the existence of that god. Imagine. Just picture it in your mind.

Now, all those sentences were not spoken nor written by a god...they were spoken by a man.

Keep imagining what you would think of someone who believed in that god... and tell me...

This is what you think about my religion and I respect as long as you dont harm me . I discuss the logic of words and logic of the system , I dont discuss they were written by whom .

(November 30, 2013 at 7:44 pm)Nineteen Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Nineteen, imagine, if you can, the possibility that there is no god, that your god was made up, that those sentences were made up by people, for people. Imagine you have been deceived to believe in the existence of that god. Imagine. Just picture it in your mind.

Now, all those sentences were not spoken nor written by a god...they were spoken by a man.

Keep imagining what you would think of someone who believed in that god... and tell me...

This is what you think about my religion and I respect as long as you dont harm me . I discuss the logic of words and logic of the system , I dont discuss they were written by whom .

Really? The source would seem to be critical.