(December 7, 2013 at 11:07 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote:

(December 7, 2013 at 11:01 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: What, so as long as they're still on the same land mass it doesn't matter?

Of course it is still reprehensible, but they were still in the same country so that doesn't entitle them to their own country.

Special exception.

The Jews have been marginalized and slaughtered by their neighbors for millennia. If they want one solitary country to reside in where they are not the minority for once, I'm all for it. If they don't want to take shit from anyone anymore instead of being led to the slaughter yet again I applaud them. If they happen to kill some Muslims while defending themselves I'm not going to shed any tears. In fact I may donate some ammo.

Then ask yourself why the victorious Allies did not give them a piece of Germany?

Answer: They wanted them the fuck out of Europe.... and no one really liked the Arabs.

(December 7, 2013 at 11:12 pm)Rahul Wrote: If they happen to kill some Muslims while defending themselves I'm not going to shed any tears. In fact I may donate some ammo.

So you have no problem if Indians overrun your lands and evict you? They've been persecuted and marginalized.

I'll donate money to them! /s

Everything you just said can be turned around to rip your possessions from you.

And the focus on killing preferentially muslims (over aggressors, theives, etc)?

Racist.

Abrahamic faiths = Judaism, Christianity, Islam.

So why should we grant one of the sects of Abraham supremacy over land they used to live on 2000 years ago?
Why don't we give the Native Americans Manhattan and let them forcibly evict everyone there including Jewish Americans?
Why don't we give the Italians London since they used to own it?
Why don't we give the Mongols half of Eurasia?
Why don't we allow the Muslims the Caliphate?

I mean this genuinely my dear friend. The question is not why do people dislike zionism, the question is, why do you like it? Why do you think a strip of desert surrounded by hostile people with an ancient city of false idols and unscientific temple is actually a 'safer' place for you to live and more important to you than Manhattan or London? Given the true year of human civilization is 12013 HE, why don't we all agree to give up our ancient land rights and work to build a better world?

I don't think Marx has any idea what he's talking about.

Furthermore, he conveniently neglects to mention the fact that the only reason they are there is because they were installed there after WWII. True, Zionism existed prior to that, based upon the idea of it having been their Biblical homeland. But the Palestinians were living there, and have every right to it. Their claim is far more immediate, if you see my point. I can empathize with their lobbying for a right to return. From a pragmatic point I can never see that happening. The Israelis aren't about to leave, ever.

I have absolutely nothing against Zionism. I can empathize with the desire to return to what they feel is their Biblical homeland. Were I Jewish I would also have such feelings. Just don't try and say that Israel is not a theocracy. It is. Sure, you have free elections, and an essentially parliamentary government with the Knesset. But it
is a de facto theocracy even if it is not a de jure one. The Orthodox factions have inordinate influence with the government even while the average Israeli is on the secular side.

A two state solution that lets everybody get something of their own is the only rational one. Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to secure lands of their own. As to whether such a sensible solution comes to pass is debatable.

Don't be calling the Arabs savages. They are people. They have to live to. I can think of a lot of Americans who behave savagely. It happens. Never paint a whole race with one brush. That is just plain wrong.

(December 8, 2013 at 3:08 am)Raven Wrote: Furthermore, he conveniently neglects to mention the fact that the only reason they are there is because they were installed there after WWII. True, Zionism existed prior to that, based upon the idea of it having been their Biblical homeland. But the Palestinians were living there, and have every right to it. Their claim is far more immediate, if you see my point. I can empathize with their lobbying for a right to return. From a pragmatic point I can never see that happening. The Israelis aren't about to leave, ever.

I have absolutely nothing against Zionism. I can empathize with the desire to return to what they feel is their Biblical homeland. Were I Jewish I would also have such feelings. Just don't try and say that Israel is not a theocracy. It is. Sure, you have free elections, and an essentially parliamentary government with the Knesset. But it
is a de facto theocracy even if it is not a de jure one. The Orthodox factions have inordinate influence with the government even while the average Israeli is on the secular side.

A two state solution that lets everybody get something of their own is the only rational one. Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to secure lands of their own. As to whether such a sensible solution comes to pass is debatable.

Don't be calling the Arabs savages. They are people. They have to live to. I can think of a lot of Americans who behave savagely. It happens. Never paint a whole race with one brush. That is just plain wrong.

Israel is not a theocracy! It is both de jure & de facto secular. Gays have more rights in Israel than any other Middle Eastern country; yet the Torah calls for them to be killed. Many of Israel's leaders have been atheists (when the Torah calls for the killing of non-believers), including Israel's great Iron Lady; Golda Meir (who just happens to appear on the money). The Torah says a woman may never have authority over a man; and yet Israel has had many women leaders. Is this theocracy?

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(December 8, 2013 at 12:16 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote:

(December 7, 2013 at 11:12 pm)Rahul Wrote: If they happen to kill some Muslims while defending themselves I'm not going to shed any tears. In fact I may donate some ammo.

So you have no problem if Indians overrun your lands and evict you? They've been persecuted and marginalized.

I'll donate money to them! /s

Everything you just said can be turned around to rip your possessions from you.

And the focus on killing preferentially muslims (over aggressors, theives, etc)?

Racist.

No, the Indians have been horribly mistreated, but 6 million of them haven't been killed. And Islam isn't a race, it is a totalitarian ideology.

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Golda Meir Wrote:There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.

(December 8, 2013 at 12:16 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: So you have no problem if Indians overrun your lands and evict you? They've been persecuted and marginalized.

I'll donate money to them! /s

Everything you just said can be turned around to rip your possessions from you.

And the focus on killing preferentially muslims (over aggressors, theives, etc)?

Racist.

If the North American Native Americans obtained enough power to take over the US I could simply move to another country dominated by white people.

Which other jewish country would the Israel jews move to? Oh, wait, there are none.

Muslims are the aggressors. Have you seen the Palestinian children TV shows praising the children of suicide bombers for how heroic their parents were by killing innocent civilian jews? The Muslims over there teach their children to hate jews from birth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY0zE64thJ4

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(December 8, 2013 at 12:16 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: And the focus on killing preferentially muslims (over aggressors, theives, etc)?

Racist.

Oh, yeah. This is another thing. Racism is hatred against someone because of their ethnic group. Being a Muslim is a religious belief system.

So having an issue with members of a religious group is not racism.

(December 8, 2013 at 11:58 am)Rahul Wrote: If the North American Native Americans obtained enough power to take over the US I could simply move to another country dominated by white people.

Or both you and I would fight for what's ours.

Neither of us are beholden to the sins of our grandfathers.

Frankly, with respect to Israel, the deed is done.

The Jews are there, as are the Arabs.

What matters what they do next.

(December 8, 2013 at 11:58 am)Rahul Wrote: Which other jewish country would the Israel jews move to? Oh, wait, there are none.

Who is given the authority to decide which religious group should gain an entire plot of land?

This is religious favoritism.

It also has the convinience of concentrating a very large population of Jews into one country that may be destroyed.

If anything, you've exposed many Jews as a target.

Perhaps that's why they were put there, in the homeland of their blood fueding enemies.

Why not put Israel in Europe or America?

Because the Allies didn't want them there. Much easier to shove them off in non-Allied territory.

(December 8, 2013 at 11:58 am)Rahul Wrote: Muslims are the aggressors. Have you seen the Palestinian children TV shows praising the children of suicide bombers for how heroic their parents were by killing innocent civilian jews? The Muslims over there teach their children to hate jews from birth.

Muslims != Palestinians.

You do have a point towards hate being taught. However, you have misattributed the generic "Muslim" to teaching hatred.

Perhaps you should indicate that swathes of the Gaza Strip controlled by Hamas on Hamas-controlled Television stations are actively teaching hate.

Does that give you the right to murder them?

Do I have the right to murder you, oh friendly Texan, on virtue of some arbitrary belief?

I say no to either.

You appear to agree with the first one.

Let he without sin cast the first stone....

(December 8, 2013 at 11:58 am)Rahul Wrote: Oh, yeah. This is another thing. Racism is hatred against someone because of their ethnic group. Being a Muslim is a religious belief system.

So having an issue with members of a religious group is not racism.

I've heard this before from bigots.

Wikipedia on Racism:

Quote:Racism is generally defined as actions, practices, or beliefs that consider the human species to be divided into races with shared traits, abilities, or qualities, such as personality, intellect, morality, or other cultural behavioral characteristics, and especially the belief that races can be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to others, or that members of different races should be treated differently.

Ok, what is the definiton of Race?

Wikipedia on Race:

Quote:Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, and/or social affiliation.

In other words, race is not ethnicity.

Any historian can tell you about the evolution of tribalistic behavior through the ages, which often involved arbitrary decisions on the part of long-dead humans towards group affiliation and purity.

Everything is bigger in Texas I hear.

Perhaps bigotry is super sized as well.

You're still a racist by the loose and slippery definition of Race and Racism.