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(December 16, 2013 at 1:52 pm)Raeven Wrote: LOL, I love how the "consequences" to the actions of BOTH the man and the woman who engaged in sex are visited only on the woman.
Aren't there consequences for him as well? Doesn't he have to pay child support for the rest of his life is the woman "chooses" to have the baby? Where is his choice in the matter?
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Thanks Lion! Given that it's an emotive and complex debate...
Complex? You make it sound simple.
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...I consider a complex and moderate position, taking into account all the arguments is a reasonable position to take.
You havent taken ANY position.
Saying you are opposed to abortion but dont object to other people having abortions whenever they want - is NOT a position.
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...As opposed to ignoring all the arguments on one side of the debate so we can paint the world in nice comforting black and white.
I didnt hear any arguments from you. Black OR white. For or against. So it seems that YOU are the one going for the beige, custom-fit, do whatever you feel is right morality.
How does that feel? Laodicean?
Nice? Comfortable? Popular?
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...He holds two mutually exclusive principles in high esteem and has decide which one takes precedent is all.
And you agreed with someone who holds two mutually exclusive positions?
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...I'm not especially lukewarm on this either. My wife had to have an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy in January.
Had to have....
This is not an "an emotive and complex" issue - not even for strong opponents of abortion-on-demand. Saving one life as opposed to definitely losing TWO, is a moral no-brainer.
The same medical/ethical dilemmas are faced when emergency necessity forces the separation of conjoined twins where either one possibly lives or both certainly die.
So please dont try to equate that life saving medical intervention with the elective destruction of healthy unborn babies.
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...I desperately wanted the child to live, but sadly it was never to be.
I am very sorry for the loss of your unborn son.
Human life is precious. (Thats why I oppose abortion.)
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...So I had to take the decision (because she was a mess of emotional anguish, pain and drugs) to terminate the pregnancy.
I would argue that the medical treatment of patients with ectopic pregnancies is a moral question of whether one or both lives can be saved.
The pro-life position would be that saving one life is better than losing two.
But that is still based on the position that BOTH OF THE LIVES YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.
It is not a utilitarian question or a moral dilemma or a eugenics argument about which life is less valuable or precious.
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...when we have had to read that sickening smug and self righteous "abortion is murder" slogan quite a lot. Kinda salts the wound each time I see it.
Why would that bother you? Those posters are aimed at people who support abortion on-demand as a right, not at doctors who are faced with the inevitable failure of an ectopic pregnancy as against the hope of at least saving the mothers life.
What percentage of the millions of abortions performed each year do you think are necessary to save the life of the mother?
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...Interesting that you chose the word tolerance. I'd go with "respect" myself. Respect for another person's right to make their own decisions about their own bodies.
If an unborn baby is a boy, is their penis part of the mothers body?
(If you want to see hypocrisy writ-large, chat to a pro-choicer who opposes circumcision. You can abort an unborn baby but parents who circumcise their new born babies butchers.)
(December 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: ...So thanks for your view. Feel free to write it on a piece of paper, roll it up, shove it up you sanctimonious arse and set fire to it.
Your welcome.
I can assure you I wont hesitate to offer you my view anytime I see fit.
...since you are so big on "respecting" what other people do with their own bodies. I look forward to your ongoing "respect".
Its an interesting paradox that the supporters of abortion on-demand chant... it's a womans body, its a womans choice, mind your own business, right up until the baby is born, and then it's the taxpayers job to step up and support unmarried moms if her choice of fertility partner leaves her.
I started to reply to this but it degenerated into an inarticulate stream of abuse so I'll wait until my brain is not quite so full of Fuck.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
December 17, 2013 at 10:11 am (This post was last modified: December 17, 2013 at 10:14 am by Fidel_Castronaut.)
(December 16, 2013 at 10:34 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Its an interesting paradox that the supporters of abortion on-demand chant... it's a womans body, its a womans choice, mind your own business, right up until the baby is born, and then it's the taxpayers job to step up and support unmarried moms if her choice of fertility partner leaves her.
Interesting, further, that so-called 'pro-life' campaigners can have exactly the same criticism levelled at them, only very often they don't want any welfare support involved at all.
Anyway, I don't see how expecting a minimum level of welfarism to be included in assisting a parent and child in need can be a bad thing?
I guess if you're one of those people that truly doesn't give a shit about human life once it's been born then it makes sense.
Oh, also, good generalisation on all single parents (it makes not a jot of difference whether you're married or not)! It's not truly a Lion post without an ignorant and misinformed caveat at the end.
December 17, 2013 at 10:26 am (This post was last modified: December 17, 2013 at 10:57 am by Jacob(smooth).)
(December 17, 2013 at 3:34 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:
(December 16, 2013 at 10:34 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:
Complex? You make it sound simple.
You havent taken ANY position.
Saying you are opposed to abortion but dont object to other people having abortions whenever they want - is NOT a position.
I didnt hear any arguments from you. Black OR white. For or against. So it seems that YOU are the one going for the beige, custom-fit, do whatever you feel is right morality.
How does that feel? Laodicean?
Nice? Comfortable? Popular?
And you agreed with someone who holds two mutually exclusive positions?
Had to have....
This is not an "an emotive and complex" issue - not even for strong opponents of abortion-on-demand. Saving one life as opposed to definitely losing TWO, is a moral no-brainer.
The same medical/ethical dilemmas are faced when emergency necessity forces the separation of conjoined twins where either one possibly lives or both certainly die.
So please dont try to equate that life saving medical intervention with the elective destruction of healthy unborn babies.
I am very sorry for the loss of your unborn son.
Human life is precious. (Thats why I oppose abortion.)
I would argue that the medical treatment of patients with ectopic pregnancies is a moral question of whether one or both lives can be saved.
The pro-life position would be that saving one life is better than losing two.
But that is still based on the position that BOTH OF THE LIVES YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.
It is not a utilitarian question or a moral dilemma or a eugenics argument about which life is less valuable or precious.
Why would that bother you? Those posters are aimed at people who support abortion on-demand as a right, not at doctors who are faced with the inevitable failure of an ectopic pregnancy as against the hope of at least saving the mothers life.
What percentage of the millions of abortions performed each year do you think are necessary to save the life of the mother?
If an unborn baby is a boy, is their penis part of the mothers body?
(If you want to see hypocrisy writ-large, chat to a pro-choicer who opposes circumcision. You can abort an unborn baby but parents who circumcise their new born babies butchers.)
Your welcome.
I can assure you I wont hesitate to offer you my view anytime I see fit.
...since you are so big on "respecting" what other people do with their own bodies. I look forward to your ongoing "respect".
Its an interesting paradox that the supporters of abortion on-demand chant... it's a womans body, its a womans choice, mind your own business, right up until the baby is born, and then it's the taxpayers job to step up and support unmarried moms if her choice of fertility partner leaves her.
Nu
I started to reply to this but it degenerated into an inarticulate stream of abuse so I'll wait until my brain is not quite so full of Fuck.
Ok. Have simmered down a bit. However I've decided not to reply to your post in detail. I'm here on this forum for fun an not to rake over old scars simply to refute the asinine ramblings of an ignorant arsewipe (sorry). So I'll concede all points (unless anyone else wants a go). You win lion. Enjoy.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
(December 16, 2013 at 12:56 pm)JohnCrichton72 Wrote: Hitchens was anti-abortion, and for good reasons. For every advancement in our understanding of this process as a whole the cut off point at which a woman can go for abortion is restricted.
To assume it will not be restricted further, or even loosened, is silly and a delusion that people tell themselves to abuse our sexual freedoms so flagrantly and with complete lack of moral responsibility and intellectual dishonesty.
I am just making my views known and I am not singling out you specifically if it comes across as overly aggressive. I am the only anit- abortionist so far, little bit unhappy with that
Way to misrepresent Hitchens! He was pro-choice and made that clear on many occasions. He was realistic in stating that society needs to balance protection of the rights of the 'child' and the mother; it's the definition of 'child' to which he referred in this comment. What he meant is that the legal limit for abortions should be dependent on the best information that medical science can give us on the development & viability of the unborn child. This is poles apart from the unthinking, blanket, 'aborshunz is bad' approach of the pro-life lobbies.
You should replay this vid with your anti-abortion lenses off and listen to what he's actually saying.
December 17, 2013 at 11:34 am (This post was last modified: December 17, 2013 at 11:36 am by Raeven.)
(December 17, 2013 at 3:04 am)genkaus Wrote:
(December 16, 2013 at 1:52 pm)Raeven Wrote: LOL, I love how the "consequences" to the actions of BOTH the man and the woman who engaged in sex are visited only on the woman.
Aren't there consequences for him as well? Doesn't he have to pay child support for the rest of his life is the woman "chooses" to have the baby? Where is his choice in the matter?
Not much. I'm aware of a lot of men who didn't/don't pay their child support.
And anyway, why shouldn't he pay child support? Oh, wait -- he WASN'T half responsible for the "consequences" of his decision to have sex?
I can't decide which side of the abortion issue you're on. Is she irresponsible if she has the baby? Or if she chooses to abort?
Here's the point: If the man "chooses" to stick around or if he doesn't, the woman must live with the result of an unwanted pregnancy no matter what choice he makes. She HAS no choice in the matter. Guy takes off for Bimini? She still has the baby. Don't you see that? Really?
(December 16, 2013 at 8:36 pm)Polaris Wrote: Not talking from a medical perspective where the life of the mother/unborn child is in danger, I can't justify standing against both war and death sentences yet turn around and support abortions.
Do you support a person's right to defend themselves if they come under an attack?
The best analogy I've heard on the bodily rights argument is this: You choose to work in a psychiatric hospital knowing that there are patients in that hospital that suffer from violent tendencies and that you might become the target of their violent aggressions. One day a patient attacks you. Do you have a right to defend yourself from that attack? Or do you have to curl up in a ball and let them kick the shit out of you because you consented to working in an environment knowing that being the victim of a violent assault was a possibility?
Consenting to working in the psychiatric hospital is equivalent to consenting to sex. Being attacked by the patient is equivalent to getting pregnant.
No woman should be forced to endure the risks of pregnancy against her will (getting the shit beaten out of her by the patient) because she consented to having sex (or working in that hospital).
And pregnancy is very risky. It is inherently risky. You cannot divorce the medical repercussions of pregnancy from the argument because every pregnancy, EVERY SINGLE PREGNANCY, puts the mother's life and health at risk:
CDC.gov's list of pregnancy complications Wrote:The following are some common maternal health conditions or problems a woman may experience during pregnancy—
Anemia
UTIs
Mental Health Conditions
Hypertension
Gestational Diabetes Mellitus
Obesity and weight gain
Hyperemesis Gravidarum
The Liz Library Wrote:What women are "at risk" for complications? ALL of them.
Every minute of every day, somewhere in the world, most often in a developing nation, a woman dies from complications related to
pregnancy or childbirth.
And that's just talking about the immediate physical repercussions.
Below is a partial list of the physical effects and risks of pregnancy. This list does not include the many non-physical effects and risks a woman faces in reproducing, such as the economic investment of work interruptions from pregnancy and breastfeeding, or time lost from career and other opportunity costs involved in pregnancy and later child rearing (mothers comprise 90+% of primary parents), or the emotional trauma of problem pregnancies, or the numerous economic and lifestyle repercussions that pregnancy and motherhood will have on the remainder of a mother's life.
This page was written in response to the popular, but mother-denigrating and nonsensical notion that, absent a substantial investment of some other sort, i.e. absent committed emotional and financial support of the mother of his child through pregnancy and beyond, and a familial relationship with both of them in fact, a "father" is, without anything more, a father, let alone an "equal parent."
We have been culturally conditioned to accept some incredible and false ideas. But it is offensive to assert that pregnancy impacts men in any way equivalent to its impact on women; that fathers and mothers have comparable experiences or feelings in connection with pregnancy or their babies; that nonresident unwed fathers, based on DNA, ipso facto "should" have "rights;" that, from the standpoint of family laws or women's choices regarding abortion, pregnancy should be viewed as nothing more than an "inconvenience"; or that the riskiest "jobs" in this world all are performed by men. (Compare the percentages of women carrying the scars of pregnancy with the percentages of men who carry the scars of battle.)
Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:
exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
heartburn and indigestion
constipation
weight gain
dizziness and light-headedness
bloating, swelling, fluid retention
hemmorhoids
abdominal cramps
yeast infections
congested, bloody nose
acne and mild skin disorders
skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
mild to severe backache and strain
increased headaches
difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
increased urination and incontinence
bleeding gums
pica
breast pain and discharge
swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
inability to take regular medications
shortness of breath
higher blood pressure
hair loss
tendency to anemia
curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with on-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
extreme pain on delivery
hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:
stretch marks (worse in younger women)
loose skin
permanent weight gain or redistribution
abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
changes to breasts
varicose veins
scarring from episiotomy or c-section
other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
Occasional complications and side effects:
complications of episiotomy
spousal/partner abuse
hyperemesis gravidarum
temporary and permanent injury to back
severe scarring requiring later surgery
(especially after additional pregnancies)
dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
gestational diabetes
placenta previa
anemia (which can be life-threatening)
thrombocytopenic purpura
severe cramping
embolism (blood clots)
medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
hormonal imbalance
ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
hemorrhage and
numerous other complications of delivery
refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
severe post-partum depression and psychosis
research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
Pregnancy/childbirth was a leading cause of death of American women of childbearing age at the turn of the century. It remains a leading cause of death of women in many countries in the world.
All pregnant women, by virtue of their pregnant status, face some level of maternal risk. Data suggest that around 40% of all pregnant women have some complication. About 15% ... [have complications] that are potentially life-threatening.
Girls aged 15-19 are twice as likely to die from childbirth as women in their twenties; those under age 15 are five times as likely to die.
"Can a function so perilous that in spite of the best care, it kills thousands of women every year, that leaves at least a quarter of the women more or less invalided, and a majority with permanent anatomic changes of structure, that is always attended by severe pain and tearing of tissues, and that kills 3%-5% of children -- can such a function be called normal?"
-- Joseph, B. BeLee, obstetrician, quoted in Wendy Mitchinson, Giving Birth in Canada 1900-1950 (2002) Toronto Press, ISBN 0-8020-8471-0, a history of childbirth in Canada
World's Top Five Causes Of Disease Burden In Young People And Adults Ages 15-44
Female: 1. Maternity 2. Sexually Transmitted Diseases 3. Tuberculosis 4. HIV Infection 5. Depression
Male: 1. HIV Infection 2. Tuberculosis 3. Motor Vehicle Injury 4. Homicide And Violence 5. War
Myth: Most women enjoy being pregnant.
Fact: Some women do; some women don't, and for most, it's just not that simple. We tend not to hear as often from the women who don't. Lots of women who are happy about being pregnant and who want their babies dislike or even hate the physical pregnancy itself. And every abortion stands as testament to the fact that women are not merely containers carrying an incidental fetus that with just a little more effort and a small bit of inconvenience just could be carried to term and then given up for adoption
Abortion is not like the death sentence. With the death sentence no one else's life is necessarily at risk based on whether that inmate lives or dies. With pregnancy, the mother's life is ALWAYS at risk regardless of whether she gives birth to a live baby or a stillborn.
In a way, though, abortion is a little like war, only not in the way you are thinking, Polaris, because the baby is the aggressor, and the mother has every right to defend herself from that aggressor.
A woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she is unwilling to accept the risks of pregnancy and regardless of whether she was a consenting sexual partner or not.
Is abortion regrettable? Yes.
Do I wish that it didn't have to happen? Absolutely. In a perfect world every pregnancy would be wanted and every woman who didn't want to become pregnant would never have to worry about that possibility.
Do I think it's right to conscript women into enduring a pregnancy against their will? Absolutely not.
So regardless of whether I think abortion is right or wrong or sad or regrettable or anything else, and regardless of how I feel about war or the capital punishment, I have to be pro-choice because I think it's wrong to force someone to endure something that they don't consent to.
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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