Quote:That still isn't conclusive. I read that as Jesus' own words beginning at v28. The NIV being the most accurate translation to date should relate the original text most closely. Looking at the passage as a whole I'd suggest this is the only plausible translation.

Again, if the 1,273rd (slight exaggeration) translation of the bible conveniently deviates the original text to your purpose, then how am I to argue with that?

Quote:He isn't speaking about people who haven't heard but those who do nothing about their faith, specifically, in this instance.

Regardless, my point still stands whether it is someone spiritually dead due to inaction upon received knowledge of god or not.

Quote:How can all of Gods' creations be perfect? Only God is perfect.

This is a bit of an oxymoron, eh? If god is perfect, then it would stand to reason that his creations are perfect. If his creations are imperfect, then it is a logical deduction that he would then be imperfect himself. That's quite a simple concept, actually. Besides that immutable fact, the majority of christians would contend that all of god's creations are perfect. The only imperfect creation of god's that christians generally allow for are humans and that is only because god created us as imperfect, you know, free will and all. Again, a farce.

Quote:Heaven is primarily referenced as a place on earth - for you and I right here & right now.

Citation needed. Where is it referenced as such. It would be a first for me. Unless, of course, this is yet another metaphorical interpretation which, in my mind, there is no room for in a debate such as this. "In my father's house, there are many mansions." Is Jesus referring to to earth as his father's house?

Furthermore,.......

Psalms 14:2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

.....how could he look down from earth to view the men on earth?

More fundamentally,......

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

.....do you notice that word 'and'? That tends to denote 'in addition to'.

Finally,.......

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

.....again, how could he descend to earth from a place on earth? A mountain top, maybe? Should we all be searching for mountain tops on earth where heaven resides? Doubtful.

I could go on and on about this one and reference many more scriptures, but I'll refrain as I'm sure the above will suffice.

Quote:He does make it happen here. It's only your resistance to him that is preventing you from enjoying it.

If submission to him makes my mind numb to the senseless pain and suffering in this life, no thank you. If my submission to him makes me aloof to the obvious fallacies of his creations, no thank you. I prefer to be an independent thinker as opposed to a mindless drone.

Quote:It would seem that you are quite far off in your basic understanding of the subject. The nature of good and evil isn't a prophesy but an observation of human nature.

Are we now completely disregarding the entire book of Revelations? If we are going to completely disregard large portions of the bible as they are intended in their literal sense, then I see no reason that this debate should continue at all.

(February 22, 2010 at 12:45 am)theVOID Wrote: And how do you know which Biblical laws to reject?

Well technically I'm not supposed to reject any, but I'm far from perfect so I'm not 100% observant.

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(February 22, 2010 at 5:52 pm)REPuckett Wrote: This is a bit of an oxymoron, eh? If god is perfect, then it would stand to reason that his creations are perfect. If his creation are imperfect, then it is a logical deduction that he would then be imperfect himself. That's quite a simple concept, actually.

This is only if you assume He wanted a perfect creation.

Quote:This is only if you assume He wanted a perfect creation.

I must say that this is just slighty more than laughable. So you are suggesting that a perfect god wanted his creations to be imperfect? The very concept is fallible in itself and, if I were still a christian, I would be extremely pissed off at a perfect god that created life imperfectly, causing much pain and suffering to play his game, simply because he wanted to be as such.

Quote:

Well technically I'm not supposed to reject any, but I'm far from perfect so I'm not 100% observant.

Quote:

Does that mean you're not Hasidic?





Have you had a bris? Do you keep kosher? Do you go to Temple? Or are you a high holiday Jew?

I'm not judging,I don't really care, I'm just curious. That curiosity led me to spend some time at an online Yeshiva. I had some nice discussions about the Torah with the Rebbe and some of the other men. Those guys make the Puritans look downright frivolous.

(February 22, 2010 at 6:08 pm)REPuckett Wrote: I must say that this is just slighty more than laughable. So you are suggesting that a perfect god wanted his creations to be imperfect?

Yes. Otherwise, what purpose would our lives serve?

(February 22, 2010 at 6:31 pm)Alex Wrote:

(February 22, 2010 at 6:08 pm)REPuckett Wrote: I must say that this is just slighty more than laughable. So you are suggesting that a perfect god wanted his creations to be imperfect?

Yes. Otherwise, what purpose would our lives serve?

Our lives serve no purpose, unless we wish them to and adhere to that wish. Why is it that some people can't handle the thought that we serve no higher purpose?

In response to your post, I don't really understand what you're implying. Are you implying that the purpose of our lives is to be imperfect creations of a perfect god?

(February 22, 2010 at 6:35 pm)Shell B Wrote: In response to your post, I don't really understand what you're implying. Are you implying that the purpose of our lives is to be imperfect creations of a perfect god?

Nope, our purpose is to make it perfect. If it came ready-made things would be pretty boring.

(February 22, 2010 at 6:40 pm)Alex Wrote:

(February 22, 2010 at 6:35 pm)Shell B Wrote: In response to your post, I don't really understand what you're implying. Are you implying that the purpose of our lives is to be imperfect creations of a perfect god?

Nope, our purpose is to make it perfect. If it came ready-made things would be pretty boring.

So, our purpose is to make our lives perfect? That's a lot to ask.

I like my life; it isn't ready made and it doesn't have to be perfect.

Quote:Yes. Otherwise, what purpose would our lives serve?

Our lives serve whatever purpose we choose it to, not some external fictional entity.

Quote:Nope, our purpose is to make it perfect.

If that is truly what you believe, then you have already set yourself up for failure. It does not, typically, make much sense to impose unnatainable goals upon yourself.

(February 22, 2010 at 6:45 pm)Shell B Wrote: So, our purpose is to make our lives perfect? That's a lot to ask.

I like my life; it isn't ready made and it doesn't have to be perfect.

Not our lives specifically, but the world. It's pretty horrible in some places, and we should do our part to fix it.

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(February 22, 2010 at 6:45 pm)REPuckett Wrote: If that is truly what you believe, then you have already set yourself up for failure. It does not, typically, make much sense to impose unnatainable goals upon yourself.

Sorry - it's our job to make it as perfect as possible. Then there's the messiah and whatnot.