(January 12, 2014 at 4:23 pm)là bạn điên Wrote:

Quote:Not necessarily. I have a rule that my kids should not use any of my power tools, or cook, or fight. This is for their own protection. However I don't apply those rules to myself.

You fight?

From time to time, yes.

(January 12, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Quite true. But that is by the moral standards in which you live. God does / would not Live within any moral standards.

That explanation has never satisfied me. How can a source of morals have none of his own?

Quote:Not necessarily. I have a rule that my kids should not use any of my power tools, or cook, or fight. This is for their own protection. However I don't apply those rules to myself.

With the first two, your rules exist only because (presumably) they are too young to use power tools or cook safely. They are rules you would not apply to adults. The last is (presumably, again) a rule you likely follow yourself (or, at least, wouldn't break in front of your kids).

(January 12, 2014 at 5:06 pm)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(January 12, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Quite true. But that is by the moral standards in which you live. God does / would not Live within any moral standards.

That explanation has never satisfied me. How can a source of morals have none of his own?

Quote:Not necessarily. I have a rule that my kids should not use any of my power tools, or cook, or fight. This is for their own protection. However I don't apply those rules to myself.

With the first two, your rules exist only because (presumably) they are too young to use power tools or cook safely. They are rules you would not apply to adults. The last is (presumably, again) a rule you likely follow yourself (or, at least, wouldn't break in front of your kids).

No, I fight. Broke a rib doing it last year. Because I understand the difference between full contact San Shou and biting your sister because she said Chelsea was rubbish. I have a broader understanding of when fighting is OK. In the same way a case could be made that it's OK for God to kill because he knows when it's OK, but we shouldn't because our understanding is limited.

Not saying that's the case but it is internally consistent.

(January 12, 2014 at 5:18 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: No, I fight. Broke a rib doing it last year. Because I understand the difference between full contact San Shou and biting your sister because she said Chelsea was rubbish.

Noted. Nonetheless, you're telling your children not to do it because the act of fighting is inherently immoral or because you're concerned that it would cause them a lot of tangible trouble if they did at this point?

Quote:I have a broader understanding of when fighting is OK. In the same way a case could be made that it's OK for God to kill because he knows when it's OK, but we shouldn't because our understanding is limited.

Not saying that's the case but it is internally consistent.

In what circumstances is it okay to kill unnecessarily? We lack the knowledge and capacity to solve all of our problems without killing, but that is not true of an omni-being like God, is it?

And, assuming that there are such circumstances, does awareness of them ensure God would only kill under those circumstances?

(January 11, 2014 at 9:00 pm)Lek Wrote:

(January 11, 2014 at 3:56 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Hey Lek, are you afraid that if you don't repeat- like some form of magic chant- that god is just every time you have to respond to an example of clear unjust behavior from him, that you'll actually find yourself considering the situation and maybe, just maybe, stop believing it?

The reason that I keep repeating that god is just, is because you all keep saying that a loving god wouldn't do such things. And I keep saying that he's loving because loving beings (such as parents) can administer just punishment to children and still love them. Of course, you disagree with the severity of the punishment, but they were warned specifically what would happen before hand. Every time he'd send out a prophet to warn people they would mistreat and often kill him. We're talking about a crime against God. There's different implications. Yes, God is someone to be feared. It seems like you think that God is a one dimensional cream puff (Yes, I've said this before.), but he's not just what you want him to be. He does punish for wrongs. That doesn't mean he's not loving, but he is the boss. By the way, the passage doesn't say "children", but rather "youths". I'm thinking more likely teens or young adults.

He's the boss so whatever says goes the huh? Lemme throw out a little hypothetical then. If your boss told you he wants your TPS reports on his desk Monday morning every week and you didn't do them for a whole quarter, would it be OK for him to bend you over his desk and fuck your asshole?

If so may I ask where do you work and how do I apply to senior management?

[quote='Jacob(smooth)' pid='581351' dateline='1389516549']
Gentlemen please. We're going far afield and turning this into straight out abuse. I don't think Lek is trolling in the least.

[quote='Lek' pid='581209' dateline='1389495327']

First of all Jacob, thanks for your kindness. You're right. I'm not trolling. I gave up trying to argue people into accepting Christianity a long time ago. As I said in my introduction to the forum I'm interested in the truth and I love talking about this stuff. And as I also said in a previous post on another thread - all christians have doubts including me. As Esquilax said earlier, science was never my strongest subject and after getting into a discussion with him early on about evolution, I backed off because I wasn't ready to do the scientific research to respond to his arguments. What I do want to do though, is to correct what I see as misinterpretations of the bible and give explanations according to my opinion and christian scholars as to the meaning. We obviously disagree, but this a forum for discussion. Isn't that what we're here for? I'm going to respond shortly to the second part of your post.

(January 12, 2014 at 6:28 pm)Lek Wrote: First of all Jacob, thanks for your kindness. You're right. I'm not trolling. I gave up trying to argue people into accepting Christianity a long time ago. As I said in my introduction to the forum I'm interested in the truth and I love talking about this stuff. And as I also said in a previous post on another thread - all christians have doubts including me. As Esquilax said earlier, science was never my strongest subject and after getting into a discussion with him early on about evolution, I backed off because I wasn't ready to do the scientific research to respond to his arguments. What I do want to do though, is to correct what I see as misinterpretations of the bible and give explanations according to my opinion and christian scholars as to the meaning. We obviously disagree, but this a forum for discussion. Isn't that what we're here for? I'm going to respond shortly to the second part of your post.

Hey, Lek. I was a Christian for most of my life. Went through an introspective period from age 25-30 and found that I simply could not believe in god any longer. I'd like you to mull a few things over. This is not something I'm asking you to answer, just something for you to ponder to yourself.

1.)God created hell. Why? I mean really why? If God is loving then why would he create a place of eternal torment? If you were God would you create a place like hell? If not does that mean you are a more loving being than God?

2.)God loves us and want us to all go to Heaven right? He personally cares about you as an individual. Now I assume you were raised Christian. Most Christians think Muslims are going to go to Hell. Most people stick with the same religion they were raised with. They frequently change denominations, but usually stick with the base religion.

If you were raised in Saudi Arabia you would most likely have been raised Muslim. And if so, and you were a good, kind, decent human, you very well probably would have stayed Muslim your entire life surrounded by your proud family and community members. And then, according to most Christian belief, you would burn in eternal torment forever. For why? For being raised in an incorrect religion? Even though God cared and loved that individual?

If you were God would you have created a reality where the majority of his beloved children would end up in Hell even if they were kind, gently, loving, good persons?

Does that make any sense to you? Cause it never made sense to me. A god that would let this happen would either be malevolent, indifferent, or incompetent.

Hi Lek.

If I may. I'm coming at this from a (broadly) Christian perspective and I still have a problem with it. Perhaps you can help me.

1. An offense against God is more serious than one against people is a concept I understand. However I see little consistency. Many of God's prophets were abused and attacked (as you said) but only occasionally is retribution forthcoming. Why was a bit of mockery of the prophets baldness deserving of such punishment. Bear in in mind that if they'd just seen him walking up the road then they had no way to know that he even was a prophet.

2. The God I know, from the NT is as you say a merciful God. Do you have any trouble reconciling the God who deals so fairly with the woman at the well and who asks God to forgive the soldiers who nailed the son of God himself to a cross, with the one who kills 42 youths for making a crack about somebody being bald. Does it seem consistent to you?
[/quote]

I'll try to answer your questions the best I can as to my understanding and it's hard to do in a few words. I'll acknowledge that at first read it appears that God is inconsistent. First of all I feel the best way for people today to understand the entire bible is to begin in the new testament and then study the old testament. The reason I say this is that salvation comes from faith in Christ and the new testament contains the story of his life, death and resurection as well the testimonies of those who walked with him, listened to him and witnessed the events which were written about. If you believe that Jesus is the incaration of God, then you will believe his testimony concerning his father. Concerning the God of the old testament, if you read the first and second chpters of the book of Romans, Paul shows at great length why everybody who ever lived is worthy of God's wrath, the same as Adam, because we also sinned against God. God told Adam in the garden that if he ate of the tree of good and evil he would surely die. God was rougher in the old testament which was before Jesus' atoning death on the cross. His justice was being carried and it was fierce, but it was all to unravel his plan to make the ultimate sacrifice for us to avoid the final act of justice which was eternal death, culminating in Jesus taking upon himself athe wrath of God. He saved us from the punishment we were facing. The bible ends with the final victory over evil and the creation of the new earth which will be inhabited by those who accept his gift. It's like "paradise lost and paradise restored." Why God acted the way he did I don't understand, but according to his son who paid the penalty for us I believe that is he loving and just. We can't totally understand God, but we can know Jesus and believe him.

(January 12, 2014 at 6:28 pm)Lek Wrote: What I do want to do though, is to correct what I see as misinterpretations of the bible and give explanations according to my opinion and christian scholars as to the meaning. We obviously disagree, but this a forum for discussion. Isn't that what we're here for? I'm going to respond shortly to the second part of your post.

When you say 'misinterpretations', what do you actually mean? Since we have know way of knowing what the real meaning is, you can only dispute another's interpretation based on your own interpretation.

Your interpretation has no greater claim to correctness than mine.

(January 12, 2014 at 6:51 pm)Rahul Wrote: [quote='Lek' pid='581759' dateline='1389565720']
Hey, Lek. I was a Christian for most of my life. Went through an introspective period from age 25-30 and found that I simply could not believe in god any longer. I'd like you to mull a few things over. This is not something I'm asking you to answer, just something for you to ponder to yourself.

You guys are really making me work today. Thanks, I will ponder your questions. I hope this comes out ok on the post because I'm not sure if I know to deal with multiple quotes.

1.)God created hell. Why? I mean really why? If God is loving then why would he create a place of eternal torment? If you were God would you create a place like hell? If not does that mean you are a more loving being than God?

The space isn't big enough to address the subject adequately, but if you google http://www.thenarrowpath.com, he has a zillion lectures on mp3. If you scroll down the page you'll find one that address three different views of hell. They're all views that have been held by christians since the days of the early church. In addition to a hell of eternal torment, there's probably more biblical evidence for a hell to which a person goes for an appropriate time and then dies forever. Another view, which seems to be the most prevelant view in the early church is that a person goes to hell and stays until he eventually accepts Christ and then goes to heaven. In any view it's a terrible place, but not necessarily eternal. I found it most interesting. This guy thinks out of the box, but supports his views from the bible.

2.)God loves us and want us to all go to Heaven right? He personally cares about you as an individual. Now I assume you were raised Christian. Most Christians think Muslims are going to go to Hell. Most people stick with the same religion they were raised with. They frequently change denominations, but usually stick with the base religion.

If you were raised in Saudi Arabia you would most likely have been raised Muslim. And if so, and you were a good, kind, decent human, you very well probably would have stayed Muslim your entire life surrounded by your proud family and community members. And then, according to most Christian belief, you would burn in eternal torment forever. For why? For being raised in an incorrect religion? Even though God cared and loved that individual?

If you were God would you have created a reality where the majority of his beloved children would end up in Hell even if they were kind, gently, loving, good persons?

Does that make any sense to you? Cause it never made sense to me. A god that would let this happen would either be malevolent, indifferent, or incompetent.

Read Romans, Chap 1. Paul states that everyone is responsible for believing because God reveals himself clearly to us in the world around us. When I read this I believe that he places us in different places and situations during this life on earth. He reveals himself more fully to some than to others. If someone llived all his life in a place where he never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, he wouldn't be responsible for professing Christ specifically, but for responding to the light that God gave him. By responding to that light, he wouldn't know Jesus' name, but he be responding to Jesus by following what God has revealed to him. This doesn't absolve anyone from rejecting Jesus if he hears and understands the gospel and it doesn't apply to someone who totally rejects God.

Again, what you brought are things I have pondered. I'll probably never be able to figure it all out. Don't go by what I say, but always go to what the bible says.

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Scroll up on this post to get my whole reply. I guess I did mess up the format.