(January 28, 2014 at 3:30 pm)lweisenthal Wrote: Simon, you won't accept benefits (proven by a preponderance of evidence, if not beyond a shadow of doubt), in the absence of a proven mechanism. I'm happy to accept the benefits without fully understanding the mechanism.

I accept that there are benefits, I just don't attribute them to the same source.

The exact same benefits can be obtained through purely secular sources. No need for the belief in unsupported supernatural entities to gain them.

Quote:On the other hand, it's unambiguously clear that religion offers many benefits, quite apart from "social structure," including the impact of prayer relating to solace, courage, resolve, endurance, focus, discipline, humility, morality, and (as explained before) a sense of companionship with a deity which very definitely can attenuate loneliness. All of the above can offer a wide array of healthful benefits, from stress reduction to avoidance of STDs.

Again, other sources offer the same benefits.

Quote:All the "proof" a theist requires is his/her own personal experience with theism. If it works, keep doing it.

Confirmation bias, misinterpretation of events, imagination can account for these.

Regarding: "pure asinine reasonings" and "Bulls--t"

The longevity advantage associated with religious belief is an extra two years of life, which is equivalent to the population impact of curing all forms of cancer. For some people, there is no impact. For others, there is a large impact. Average it all up, and it's the same impact as curing cancer. As an oncologist, I was impressed. So I did what I did, and I'm happy I did, and I see no compelling reason to go back to how I was. It's all upside and no downside whatsoever.

You want to laugh at me; be my guest. You want to claim that religion is a bad thing, at the level of the average individual, show me the data. You demand physical world proof of the physically unprovable. I'm asking for proof that being a theist is, at the level of the individual, objectively disadvantageous, compared to being an atheist. This is a physical world claim, and should be eminently provable, if true. In contrast, I've provided objective, peer review studies to indicate that, in the U.S.A., where I live, there are objective statistical associations between health/longevity and religiosity, which are perfectly compatible with common sense a priori predictions, relating to mechanisms from stress to suicide and much in between.

So who is laughing at whom?

Reminds me of a poem I read in middle school.

This is the grave of Mike O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
His mind was clear
His will was strong
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

This is admittedly a bit of a taunt, but it's offered simply to make a point. It's not illogical to consider that there may be pragmatic advantages to religiousity (from longevity to mental health to behavior modification). It's not illogical to consider whether the concept of a theistic deity is plausible, based on modern theories of cosmology. It's not illogical to attempt to determine if it's possible for oneself to develop a theistic belief system, motivated chiefly (at first) by the pragmatic considerations.

You may say, for yourself, thanks but no thanks, but it's beyond presumptuous to make the command decision that it's bad for everyone.

- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA

(January 28, 2014 at 5:23 pm)lweisenthal Wrote: it's beyond presumptuous to make the command decision that it's bad for everyone.

False.

If someone is escaping reality for the mere comfort of fantasy, then that is not good. You can color it with semantics, claim that they are bettering themselves, but lying to one's self because one is too weak to live in the real world is not a good thing. Ignorance, brought about by religious belief, is not a good thing.

Nihilism can't be good for your health.

(January 28, 2014 at 7:53 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Nihilism can't be good for your health.

If you define 'nihilism' as thinking that the existence and operation of the universe has no grand point, then it's only bad for your health if you can't find any value in your own life. Sucks to be in a cult that hammers home the point repeatedly that you're an unworthy piece of shit that should be thankful God stopped to scrape it off his heel, huh?

You fear the implications of such a state of events and this is why you have to pretend that there's a point behind it. It'll amount to nothing in the long run, but the fate of the universe won't be of any relevance to me when I'm dead anyway. I'm just happy to be here and it's enough that I enjoy what comes as long as I can. It would seem that I'm of more sound health than you since I don't need the delusion.

Is it just me or does this seem like a variant of Pascal Wager, only the payoff is healthy living?

Not really. There are as many paths to healthy living as there are people to traverse them.