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Truth be told, I think the idea of a bunch of 20-something, white, college educated, upper-middle class American girls chastising everyone else for being privileged is kinda laughable. They're one of the most privileged groups on the planet.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
(January 30, 2014 at 4:07 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: You can mislabel it as judgmental behavior or segregation if you want. I certainly don't give a shit enough about what you think to dispel that false notion.
I think it's fair, for the sake of this discussion, to split feminism into two groups: IRL feminists and internet feminists. IRL feminists are generally pretty cool. They're the ones like Wendy Davis who spent all day on her feet, filibustering to preserve abortion rights in Texas. They're people like the women who are tortured and mutilated in Afghanistan for daring to go to school and still continue to go to school. I'm usually on board with what they want.
Then, we get the internet feminists. You want to see the types I'm talking about, go look through freethoughtblogs and get back to me. Those ones tend to be a mess; judgemental as the fundamentalists they hate (while condemning those fundamentalists for being judgmental), and never making an attempt to communicate with anyone outside their little group.
I think what I would love would be if that second group was more willing to do a little introspective soul searching and try to figure out why so many people hate them. They usually just dismiss any criticisms of them with "they're misogynists and rape supporters and they need to check their ______ privilege." The reality is, there are some very real complaints about those girls and if they would bother to listen to them, they could actually reach out to people instead of being stuck in their little circle-jerk.
I'm also seeing a lot of hostilit from that group, towards anyone who isn't in their clique. Wouldn't it also be nice if they could call out the macro aggressions from within their own ranks as easily and quickly and consitantly as they do the itty bitty little micro-aggressions they do of every day people just living their lives? I mean, there is literally a webpage dedicated to shaming men for sitting with their legs spread apart on the bus; I couldn't make this shit up. I'd post the link if I could. But, it's like, they have a problem with guys sitting with their legs spread apart, often because they have grocerys or bags or something between their legs, yet they're more than willing to look the other way when radical activists send Laci Green death threats; or when they get a guy fired because one of them overheard him talking to someone else and didn't like it; or shutting down an entire speaking event in Toronto. If internet feminists were willing to talk about their own bad behavior half as much as they talk about the piddly shit, I'd take them more seriously.
There's a certain amount of hyperbole going on there, too. Listening to them, I would have been led to believe that nobody is ever going to take a woman seriously when she talks about science. I talk science and people listen because I know what I'm talking about. You'd assume nobody in geek/gamer culture ever wants a girl there but my experience has been that they're usually pretty excited when a girl is there. I would have expected that I couldn't go out after dark without having to be scared every time I hear leaves wrustle, but I go out after dark all the time and I'm rarely scared. I would be led to believe that rape is everywhere, but I also haven't been raped. I would be led to believe that every guy is going to be gross and hit on me with rude, crude come-ons, but it rarely happens (and when it does, I almost always put the guy in his place for it). In short, a lot of what they say always happens to women rarely, if ever, happens to me. I've asked other women and they've told me the same thing: it doesn't happen to them or it's rare when it does happen.
Oh I agree that, especially on the internet, there are some ridiculous feminists. Those who will call everyone who disagrees with something a misogynist, etc. I do not know how much hyperbole there is, probably because I've seen and heard quite a few things and also would not be able to hold everyone's experience in front of me, but I have also seen a lot of people act quite the opposite of misogynistic and dismissive towards women. And I have also seen men, and other genders for that matter, face gender-specific struggles. I just find a lot of problems are with certain feminists, not so much feminism in itself.
That being said, I don't call myself a feminist. I too prefer the egalitarian title.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
January 30, 2014 at 5:04 pm (This post was last modified: January 30, 2014 at 5:15 pm by Violet.)
(January 30, 2014 at 4:38 pm)TaraJo Wrote: I think it's fair, for the sake of this discussion, to split feminism into two groups: IRL feminists and internet feminists. IRL feminists are generally pretty cool. They're the ones like Wendy Davis who spent all day on her feet, filibustering to preserve abortion rights in Texas. They're people like the women who are tortured and mutilated in Afghanistan for daring to go to school and still continue to go to school. I'm usually on board with what they want.
"IRL feminists" are myriad. I've sat through a semi-organized group of ~40-60 people stating the most crass of things about straight cis men, it was unbelievable. I tend to feel anger when presented with bullying, segregation, and bigotry. Not that it means much for a ghost to say, but my knuckles were white.
Feminism is a bitter channel, and though the intentions of many 'feminists' within might well be for the good: they are inundated with a sea of hatred. Feminism has the very strong potential to share bias, and it capitalizes on a culture of fear and distrustfulness.
Quote:Then, we get the internet feminists. You want to see the types I'm talking about, go look through freethoughtblogs and get back to me. Those ones tend to be a mess; judgemental as the fundamentalists they hate (while condemning those fundamentalists for being judgmental), and never making an attempt to communicate with anyone outside their little group.
It's an entire other echelon of horribleness. Unfortunately... elements of such seep into the rest, and slowly poison the well.
Quote:I think what I would love would be if that second group was more willing to do a little introspective soul searching and try to figure out why so many people hate them. They usually just dismiss any criticisms of them with "they're misogynists and rape supporters and they need to check their ______ privilege." The reality is, there are some very real complaints about those girls and if they would bother to listen to them, they could actually reach out to people instead of being stuck in their little circle-jerk.
Privilege as a word feels the pain of its abuse. I wonder if it's ready to die. I should ask it.
Quote:I'm also seeing a lot of hostilit from that group, towards anyone who isn't in their clique. Wouldn't it also be nice if they could call out the macro aggressions from within their own ranks as easily and quickly and consitantly as they do the itty bitty little micro-aggressions they do of every day people just living their lives? I mean, there is literally a webpage dedicated to shaming men for sitting with their legs spread apart on the bus; I couldn't make this shit up. I'd post the link if I could. But, it's like, they have a problem with guys sitting with their legs spread apart, often because they have grocerys or bags or something between their legs, yet they're more than willing to look the other way when radical activists send Laci Green death threats; or when they get a guy fired because one of them overheard him talking to someone else and didn't like it; or shutting down an entire speaking event in Toronto. If internet feminists were willing to talk about their own bad behavior half as much as they talk about the piddly shit, I'd take them more seriously.
Which isn't to say there are not many 'internet feminists' who are not so blinded by their hatred. Unfortunately, I do not believe many of them could tolerate the status of primary feminism boards.
Quote:There's a certain amount of hyperbole going on there, too. Listening to them, I would have been led to believe that nobody is ever going to take a woman seriously when she talks about science. I talk science and people listen because I know what I'm talking about. You'd assume nobody in geek/gamer culture ever wants a girl there but my experience has been that they're usually pretty excited when a girl is there. I would have expected that I couldn't go out after dark without having to be scared every time I hear leaves wrustle, but I go out after dark all the time and I'm rarely scared. I would be led to believe that rape is everywhere, but I also haven't been raped. I would be led to believe that every guy is going to be gross and hit on me with rude, crude come-ons, but it rarely happens (and when it does, I almost always put the guy in his place for it). In short, a lot of what they say always happens to women rarely, if ever, happens to me. I've asked other women and they've told me the same thing: it doesn't happen to them or it's rare when it does happen.
Self-fulfilling prophecies are a significant part of that.
(January 30, 2014 at 4:40 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Truth be told, I think the idea of a bunch of 20-something, white, college educated, upper-middle class American girls chastising everyone else for being privileged is kinda laughable. They're one of the most privileged groups on the planet.
"[I'm very good at shifting the blame;] I never make mistakes." - Krepo
(January 30, 2014 at 4:53 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: I just find a lot of problems are with certain feminists, not so much feminism in itself.
That being said, I don't call myself a feminist. I too prefer the egalitarian title.
I would contend that a lot of problems are with feminism itself: it lures those who are not feminists to calling themselves such, and has become a very popular movement to be a part of Also it takes all of those who are only unconsciously feminists (don't realize they are biased creatures) and sweeps them right under the rug with the rest.
People who could otherwise be a part of the egalitarian movement. Really, I think it just doesn't have a very catchy name. Feminism is way easier to remember, and if one's understood aim with social correction is to 'bring women up to men's lofty status' and stop there, then it's not surprising that it sounds perfect to them.
(January 30, 2014 at 5:04 pm)Alice Wrote: Which isn't to say there are not many 'internet feminists' who are not so blinded by their hatred. Unfortunately, I do not believe many of them could tolerate the status of primary feminism boards.
Oh, I fully agree. Sadly, their voices are often drowned out by the girls who are, screaming at the top of their lungs that a guy at the park was gonna rape her because he looked in her general direction.
And, I'll admit, some of that can be my fault and the fault of people outside feminism. I mean, which is going to draw more attention: Wendy Davis with a down-to-earth speech about defending womens right to choose or Anita Sarkesian telling everyone that Donkey Kong is a rape enabler. Crazy gets noticed.
Quote:Self-fulfilling prophecies are a significant part of that.
Also agreed. I think part of it is, whenever the victim did something that made the rape/attack/whatever more likely, you can't point any of those things out without being accused of victim blaming. Know what? When I was 8, I forgot to lock the front door one day when I left for school and then when we got home, we had been robbed. Was it victim blaming for my dad to yell at me for that? Or did I do something that legitimately made robbery more likely or easier?
Along the same vein, if a girl goes to a party with a bunch of people she doesn't know, does a lot of drugs and drinks booze that a stranger handed her, I'm not saying she deserves rape, but she needs to be aware that she's making it easier for a rapist to rape her. It would be nice if these girls would listen whenever we point these things out but, again, we just get dismissed as rape enablers or victim blamers or something.
Know what? I don't go to parties with people I don't know, I'm careful about who I make friends with, if I'm gonna drink, I'm around people I trust and I keep an eye on my drink. Know what else? I haven't been raped.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
(January 30, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Sorry, I'm stoned, I meant to imply/say: I, too, like Vae, prefer the egalitarian title. I know you have not called yourself anything to this point.
I prefer nonequality, actually. Some people may deserve more, some may deserve to die... I just don't see why these understandings should hinge so critically upon irrelevant nonsense (women in 'thought stuff', men in 'emotional stuff'... black peeps vs white peeps vs asian peeps in about everything... it's just ridiculous).
Because it is so much harder to implement an effective and truly fair system of merits, and it would require an incredible amount of sweepingly radical changes to damn near everything: egalitarianism is my second choice, since it accomplishes the most of what I'd like to see (by at least partially eliminating many irrelevant metafactors)
(January 30, 2014 at 5:17 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Oh, I fully agree. Sadly, their voices are often drowned out by the girls who are, screaming at the top of their lungs that a guy at the park was gonna rape her because he looked in her general direction.
It's incredible what fear does to people.
Quote:And, I'll admit, some of that can be my fault and the fault of people outside feminism. I mean, which is going to draw more attention: Wendy Davis with a down-to-earth speech about defending womens right to choose or Anita Sarkesian telling everyone that Donkey Kong is a rape enabler. Crazy gets noticed.
Donkey Kong is a rape-enabler? How do I even respond to that?
Well, I've won the weirdness title again (but who the hell is the second place? I haven't the faintest). So... I really can't disagree. I'd rather have the vote for best member, but that's not likely to happen
I'd have to make a sock if I wanted to go for that, and I'd have to just omit half of what I think... and I'd have to be here a lot... it's too much work, and for such an uncertain thing.
Quote:Also agreed. I think part of it is, whenever the victim did something that made the rape/attack/whatever more likely, you can't point any of those things out without being accused of victim blaming. Know what? When I was 8, I forgot to lock the front door one day when I left for school and then when we got home, we had been robbed. Was it victim blaming for my dad to yell at me for that? Or did I do something that legitimately made robbery more likely or easier?
It isn't blaming a victim to explain to a victim what they could have done differently that might have affected the outcome such to the point where it might not have occurred. It isn't 'the victim's fault that they didn't properly account for the infinite potential of perceivably negative actions another might be capable of... and I would consider it 'good' that the victim of a negative action understand the influence of their actions upon the world
And I would think the same if that person were congratulated on positivity that they put into the world, at least in part.
Quote:Along the same vein, if a girl goes to a party with a bunch of people she doesn't know, does a lot of drugs and drinks booze that a stranger handed her, I'm not saying she deserves rape, but she needs to be aware that she's making it easier for a rapist to rape her. It would be nice if these girls would listen whenever we point these things out but, again, we just get dismissed as rape enablers or victim blamers or something.
Yes. Of course, she's theoretically more likely to go to a party with at least a few people that she knows, and winding up as such, with a muddled recollection of the event (if she remembers).
My brother was victim of such nonsense once... it's not like it's a problem for only women.
Quote:Know what? I don't go to parties with people I don't know, I'm careful about who I make friends with, if I'm gonna drink, I'm around people I trust and I keep an eye on my drink. Know what else? I haven't been raped.
Somehow, I don't really think that going to parties with people I didn't know would be any more dangerous than going to parties with people I do know. Granted... it's more fun to drink with friends, especially if they really are trustworthy.
(January 30, 2014 at 4:53 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Oh I agree that, especially on the internet, there are some ridiculous feminists. Those who will call everyone who disagrees with something a misogynist, etc. I do not know how much hyperbole there is, probably because I've seen and heard quite a few things and also would not be able to hold everyone's experience in front of me, but I have also seen a lot of people act quite the opposite of misogynistic and dismissive towards women. And I have also seen men, and other genders for that matter, face gender-specific struggles. I just find a lot of problems are with certain feminists, not so much feminism in itself.
Sounds like Ego if he was a girl.
~1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.~
~Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Jesus Christ.~
Also it takes all of those who are only unconsciously feminists 
How do I even respond to that? 
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