The same reason I've invited god and the devil to throw their worst at me. The same reason I invited a demon to take over my body like that crazy head spinning ceiling climbing chick. The same reason I've flipped off god and the devil. The same reason I have committed the unforgiveable sin purposefully.

Because in the end its just paper and thoughts.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Bear with me.

I get that you're not afraid of any of those things. In similar style I'm unbothered about frost giants. I can see where there is no reason for you to NOT do those things.

What I don't understand is why you WOULD do those things. The positive as opposed to the absence of negative. Is it to assert your freedom in some way?

(February 27, 2014 at 3:05 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Well this is a bit of a shambles

First off, what the hell kind of language is "your mind is molested by fear"? Kind of a but pejorative perhaps? If the quest is" do you fear god" then you'll get a much more sensible response if you ask without the loaded bit. Especially since the bible specifically recommends that we SHOULD fear god. It could have been so simple.

I'm not talking about reverence for God. A person reveres God once they believe in him. And a person believes in him once they've been sufficiently terrorized. I'm talking about psychological abuse, probably endured as a child like so many are, in which otherwise responsible people tell you repeatedly that you are a filthy being (sinner) deserving of unimaginable torture (hell) unless you believe their sado-masochistic cartoonish conspiracy (the crucifixion of Jesus for all of mankind's evil).

Quote:By asking in such a childish way you also introduce reactance bias and a strong desire to tell you to fuck off because of the tone of the question. Nobody has to prove a thing to you!

People who believe in such childish stories (must I point out the Disney-esque movie plots contained within the Bible?) earn the right to be treated as children.

Quote:I'm happy to say I fear god. Or to be more specific, I fear the absence of what perceive to be god. In that way I also fear my kids, my wife, my cat and my bottle of aberfeldy 1978. But I have to tell you that even if I didn't, I'd not be playing along.

Wait, let me get this straight. You claim to have a wife, kids, and a cat, even though all the evidence points to the contrary-- i.e. you live in a house alone and talk to yourself as if you have a wife and kids. And nobody has actually ever physically witnessed them or even heard them speak? Have you ever had a psychiatric evaluation?

Or do you mean those things are physical entities that other minds can verify, via pictures, certificates, actually speaking with or seeing them? In other words, you mean you just never thought about God critically longer than two minutes to realize your belief in those people, and your reverence for them, is nothing like your belief and fear in God.

I appreciate that you do at least admit that your faith in God is based in fear and not reason, as you can't even imagine or role-play for 10 seconds the notion that God is not real. I respect you for that. I wish other Christians could be just as honest with not only themselves but everyone else.

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(February 27, 2014 at 5:42 am)Alice Wrote: Would it make you happier if I just straight up called it 'bullying'?

Bullying? You're kidding right?

Do any Christians need me to send them tissue?

Quote:Most people don't respond to 'jump, wimp' with 'how high?'.

Actually, it's more like: "It's okay bro/sis, your legs are fine. Try jumping. Seriously, it's okay."
Life's answers are waiting on us to find them.

Quote: Do any Christians need me to send them tissue?

Well, the sock is getting a bit crinkly, it could use a night off...

Quote: And a person believes in him once they've been sufficiently terrorized

I call bullshit. There is no possible way you can know why people believe in God, it's different for everyone. Besides, belief had to come before terror. Terror before belief makes no sense because if you don't believe then you have nothing to be scared of. . Like you don't.

Quote: I'm talking about psychological abuse, probably endured as a child like so many are, in which otherwise responsible people tell you repeatedly that you are a filthy being (sinner) deserving of unimaginable torture (hell) unless you believe their sado-masochistic cartoonish conspiracy (the crucifixion of Jesus for all of mankind's evil).

Nice story. Might be true for some, not my story though.

Quote: Wait, let me get this straight. You claim to have a wife, kids, and a cat, even though all the evidence points to the contrary-- i.e. nobody has actually ever physically witnessed them or even heard them speak? Have you ever had a psychiatric evaluation?

Or do you mean those things are physical entities that other minds can verify, via pictures, certificates, actually speaking with or seeing them? In other words, you mean you just never thought about God critically longer than two minutes to realize your belief in those people, and your reverence for them, is nothing like your belief and fear in God.

I appreciate that you do at least admit that your faith in God is based in fear and not reason, as you can't even imagine or role-play for 10 seconds the notion that God is not real. 

OK, I'll admit you lost me completely there. I can totally entertain the possibility God is not real, and I really don't think he'd be bothered by anything I write on a forum. What I won't play along with is saying something I don't believe just to prove a point have no interest in proving (that I have no fear of God, cos I do) just to please someone I don't know (you).

However would, as I said, do it for a pound. Because whilst I am fearful of God, I'm not fearful that he'll get the arse with me over something like this.

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Quote: People who believe in such childish stories (must I point out the Disney-esque movie plots contained within the Bible?) earn the right to be treated as children.

Seriously?! I can't see an animation based on babies having their heads smashed in on rocks catching on. And the "being mauled by bears for being gobby" ride would almost never get into Disney world, not even the one in France.

Anyway, leave Disney out of this. Those stories are RAW. I cry most of my way through the lion king every time!

(February 27, 2014 at 8:39 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Well, the sock is getting a bit crinkly, it could use a night off...

Quote:I call bullshit. There is no possible way you can know why people believe in God, it's different for everyone. Besides, belief had to come before terror. Terror before belief makes no sense because if you don't believe then you have nothing to be scared of. . Like you don't.

Terror doesn't have to strike through religion. Religions are just really effective at striking terror. It's how authoritarian systems function.

Quote:OK, I'll admit you lost me completely there.

Re-read your comparison. It's irrelevant.

Quote:I can totally entertain the possibility God is not real, and I really don't think he'd be bothered by anything I write on a forum. What I won't play along with is saying something I don't believe just to prove a point have no interest in proving (that I have no fear of God, cos I do) just to please someone I don't know (you).

However would, as I said, do it for a pound. Because whilst I am fearful of God, I'm not fearful that he'll get the arse with me over something like this.

Fair enough. I just don't want to hear people lie to themselves by saying, "I don't believe in religion X because of fear" out of one side of their mouth while out of the other claiming it is their duty to save mankind from some kind of undesirable eternal fate. It's not honest. And if we're going to have debate, it should be honest.

You sure? Even the sock thing

Maybe those who need to symbolically strike out at God to convince themselves He is really dead should do so without enlisting the support of the whole tribe. Suck it up and go it alone. Reminds me of a scene somewhere of a pack of chimps approaching a dead leopard, eventually more and more of the group smack the dead leopard.

Since not everyone feels that God was ever a fearsome predator, not everyone has any fear to get out of their system. Then too not everyone agrees that God is dead.

That you'd be willing to stab a photo of a loved one just shows you have some capacity as a sociopath. Of course we all do, but we're not all cool with that.

I don't have any desire to invent and pass little tests of courage to prove that there is no godly leopard in the dark waiting to strike us down for it. Once we feel autonomous enough, the question of interest isn't what wouldn't you do but rather what's worth doing?

(February 26, 2014 at 8:29 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(February 26, 2014 at 8:24 pm)Tonus Wrote: I would never have done that when I was a believer. Partly out of a sense of deep respect and adoration for god and Jesus, but yeah... also fear. That would have been like asking the 8-year-old me to say something insulting about my mom. Even if I wanted to, I knew I'd be flayed alive if she happened to hear. And let me tell you, SHE WAS OMNIPRESENT where that kind of shit was concerned.

Exactly. When I was a Christian even the thought of uttering a blasphemy, no matter how insincere, would have made me feel uneasy. But OF COURSE the reason is fear. That's why I offered the challenge, to see which believers here can actually prove their continual insistence that it has nothing to do with fear when it is so obvious to those of us who have made the journey from faith to reason.

A problem with your tactic is that it doesn't account for Christians who won't say Jesus was retarded (etc) out of love and respect, even if they were sure they wouldn't be punished for it. Since there are multiple possible reasons for refusing to say the words, you can't make much in the way of conclusions that fear is the motivation for the refusal.

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(February 27, 2014 at 4:30 am)Luckie Wrote: I have crazy wild sex with myself meanwhilst there's pictures hanging on my wall.. does that count?

PS I'd totally do it. The stabbing out and everything. Yeah at first my theist born superstition kicked in but then my logic overrode that.

I'd need a bit more of an incentive to do it. Like ten bucks.

(February 27, 2014 at 6:11 am)Luckie Wrote: Alice, isn't bullying nonconsensual whereas Christians are here on an atheist forum consensually?

-the white rabbit-

It's completely within my power to not go to a school event... therefore it is NOT bullying if I go to said school event and am thrown headfirst into a trash can (accompanied by a whole slew of jeers)?

Also... if you bully someone long enough... hard enough: they'll start consenting to it.

...

White rabbits are always where they need not be, and they're never on time.

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(February 27, 2014 at 8:13 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Bullying? You're kidding right?

Do any Christians need me to send them tissue?

I'm a ~160 year old death god. I tend to avoid yanking on chains.

I am not a Christian either.

pickup Wrote:

Alice Wrote:Most people don't respond to 'jump, wimp' with 'how high?'.

Actually, it's more like: "It's okay bro/sis, your legs are fine. Try jumping. Seriously, it's okay."
Life's answers are waiting on us to find them.

[/quote]

That is not how it reads (and you know it), and even if it was: it's still stupid

What if I told you that 'life's answers' are varied such to include religious faith? Something something subjectivity.

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(February 27, 2014 at 8:39 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Besides, belief had to come before terror. Terror before belief makes no sense because if you don't believe then you have nothing to be scared of. . Like you don't.

Would you believe in me if I didn't first give you a reason to?

Terror can certainly be at the root of a belief.

Quote:Anyway, leave Disney out of this. Those stories are RAW. I cry most of my way through the lion king every time!

... Have you seen, 'Up'?

(February 27, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Alice Wrote: What if I told you that 'life's answers' are varied such to include religious faith? Something something subjectivity.

I'd say great, show me your evidence or you don't get to go around actively lying to children and striking fear in them, to the point that they grow up and embrace death as if it's an elevator to your religion's fairy tale kingdoms ("up or down, sir?" - that asshole St. Peter).

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(February 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(February 26, 2014 at 8:29 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Exactly. When I was a Christian even the thought of uttering a blasphemy, no matter how insincere, would have made me feel uneasy. But OF COURSE the reason is fear. That's why I offered the challenge, to see which believers here can actually prove their continual insistence that it has nothing to do with fear when it is so obvious to those of us who have made the journey from faith to reason.

A problem with your tactic is that it doesn't account for Christians who won't say Jesus was retarded (etc) out of love and respect, even if they were sure they wouldn't be punished for it. Since there are multiple possible reasons for refusing to say the words, you can't make much in the way of conclusions that fear is the motivation for the refusal.

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(February 27, 2014 at 4:30 am)Luckie Wrote: I have crazy wild sex with myself meanwhilst there's pictures hanging on my wall.. does that count?

PS I'd totally do it. The stabbing out and everything. Yeah at first my theist born superstition kicked in but then my logic overrode that.

I'd need a bit more of an incentive to do it. Like ten bucks.

Okay, but to any Christian who wants to be taken seriously, I need more incentive then "if you don't believe God's gon'a have some serious heart burn."

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I think the reasonable can all agree that Christianity as a proposition is far more retarded than anything I've suggested here. So in that sense, Christians really shouldn't get too bothered by it.