(March 1, 2014 at 7:55 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:

(March 1, 2014 at 7:00 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So a beneficial function of an organism plays no part in the development of that function? Gee I guess it must've been magic after all.

You're ignoring the entire page of posts about the human appendix as if no one can hit the "back" button and see it?

The universe is not constructed logically, neither is life. Snakes and Whales still have vestigial hind legs They still continue to function.

Arguing that things "must be logically constructed or else they will cease to function" is as nonsensical for life as it is for our imperfect universe.

(March 1, 2014 at 9:40 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Please explain what is illogical about that. Do you deny evolution?

I'm going to ask you an honest question here. Don't get offended, it's only based on the above response to what I wrote:

Are you stupid?

Go Evolutionary Logic with this one. I dare you.

Apparently so AI

For the 2nd time of asking, please explain.

(March 1, 2014 at 7:55 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:

(March 1, 2014 at 7:00 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So a beneficial function of an organism plays no part in the development of that function? Gee I guess it must've been magic after all.

You're ignoring the entire page of posts about the human appendix as if no one can hit the "back" button and see it?

The universe is not constructed logically, neither is life. Snakes and Whales still have vestigial hind legs They still continue to function.

Arguing that things "must be logically constructed or else they will cease to function" is as nonsensical for life as it is for our imperfect universe.

There's only a handful of life forms that haven't continued to evolve. One of them is the horseshoe crab. All other lifeforms are in a constant state of evolution. Snakes and whales are also evolving. Humans are in a transitional state as well.

There is no necessary metaphysical component for logic and reason.

As Carlin put it, "the kid who swallows too many marbles doesn't grow up to have kids of his own". Logic and reason are a natural outgrowth of the evolutionary process, but to liken evolution to a logical process shows a profound misunderstanding of what the theory states.

(March 2, 2014 at 1:06 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: There's only a handful of life forms that haven't continued to evolve. One of them is the horseshoe crab.

I contest this. Everything we've ever thought as archaic or outside of evolutionary processes has turned out to be a mistake in our understanding.

I posit, very vehemently, that horseshoe crabs were and currently are definitely undergoing serious evolutionary processes, and responding accordingly.

However their basic overall appearance and basic lifestyle functions, which appear to not have deviated hardly a tad, gives the superficial appearance that they are not.

As we learn more I am almost 100% certain we'll be astounded at how adaptive those little bastards have been.

(March 1, 2014 at 9:40 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Please explain what is illogical about that. Do you deny evolution?

I think what he's saying- and of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong- is that evolution often functions in ways that are illogical, without the organism being destroyed because of it. It's a process that occasionally overcompensates- our spinal nerves aren't set up for our upright walking motion, for example- or develops certain parts of an organism heedless of the detriment this will cause to the rest of it. We are, all of us, patchwork creatures built up by a system that has no brakes beyond catastrophic system failure; there's very little that's actually logical about evolution, despite the benefits it sometimes brings.

(March 2, 2014 at 1:15 am)Rahul Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 1:06 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: There's only a handful of life forms that haven't continued to evolve. One of them is the horseshoe crab.

I contest this. Everything we've ever thought as archaic or outside of evolutionary processes has turned out to be a mistake in our understanding.

I posit, very vehemently, that horseshoe crabs were and currently are definitely undergoing serious evolutionary processes, and responding accordingly.

However their basic overall appearance and basic lifestyle functions, which appear to not have deviated hardly a tad, gives the superficial appearance that they are not.

As we learn more I am almost 100% certain we'll be astounded at how adaptive those little bastards have been.

They probably have interstellar starships hidden on the ocean floor.

Well the progress of humanity is such that we're actually regressing now, which would appear to be illogical. But I don't think it really is illogical all told because even though our development has lead to this undesirable state, the path to it was entirely the logical path and the only one it could have taken.

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If the crabs environment changed it would have to adapt to it to survive. It just happened to hit on the perfect guise to fit it's environment as that changed, or its environment stayed the same.

(March 1, 2014 at 7:29 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

Ryan Wrote:If logic is the true ruler of existence, I'd rather worship some personification of it rather than the Bible's personification of every bad personality trait humanity has to offer.

God is the personification of it

No, he isn't. He is a slave to it, no more able to deny it or command it than we are.

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(March 2, 2014 at 5:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well the progress of humanity is such that we're actually regressing now, which would appear to be illogical. But I don't think it really is illogical all told because even though our development has lead to this undesirable state, the path to it was entirely the logical path and the only one it could have taken.

Typical Christian conceit; humanity is regressing because your religion is nowhere near as relevant as it once was, and will never be so relevant again. You hear the same sentiment about America from racists who think America is dying because they can't own brown-skinned people as property, as was once right and proper.

(March 2, 2014 at 5:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: If the crabs environment changed it would have to adapt to it to survive. It just happened to hit on the perfect guise to fit it's environment as that changed, or its environment stayed the same.

It can also be that it has made adaptations that do not affect its appearance, or more likely that it hasn't run into any worthwhile competition for the resources it needs to survive. There are at least a few creatures on Earth that have changed very little, in evolutionary time. Sharks and crocodiles come to mind. They've mostly gotten smaller, but otherwise look very similar to their millions-year-old ancestors.