I'm struggling with something and I wanted to get others opinions on this.

It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.

My understanding is that God is supposed to withhold that knowledge - which is the point of his demanding faith.

If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar?

At the same time how can they demand or even request others to follow their path on the basis of faith if they have the luxury of knowledge and are not reliant on belief alone?

Anyone?

What, you're expecting internal consistency from a christian, now?

Seriously though, I think it's bluster combined with a very vague definition of knowledge. What they really mean is "look how certain I am!"

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: I'm struggling with something and I wanted to get others opinions on this.

It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.
My understanding is that God is supposed to withhold that knowledge - which is the point of his demanding faith. If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar? At the same time how can they demand or even request others to follow their path on the basis of faith if they have the luxury of knowledge and are not reliant on belief alone?
Anyone?

Every theist like every atheist have different point of view about their belief or non-belief.
My personal experience is that you can only feel God if you build up a relationship with him.
Forget about blind faith that may come by believing books written 2000 years ago which contain a mix of real things and a lot of made up so called truth.
This sort of belief is only theory which want take you very far.
It is like when you want to take the licence to drive a car.
You got first to learn the rules of the road and then actually drive the car.
Blind faith is only theory and nothing else so these people really never know much about God.
To know and experience God you must practice.
Prayers alone take you nowhere.
It is only when you get rid of old dogmas that the real knowledge start getting within.
A boat full of weight and junk can not go very far but as soon as you get rid of the weight and junk your boat can move.
This of course doesn't apply only to religious dogmas but also to atheist dogmas.

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: I'm struggling with something and I wanted to get others opinions on this.

It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.

My understanding is that God is supposed to withhold that knowledge - which is the point of his demanding faith.

If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar?

At the same time how can they demand or even request others to follow their path on the basis of faith if they have the luxury of knowledge and are not reliant on belief alone?

Anyone?

maybe gods aint what they claim.

god is loving ... ok
god is forgiving ... ok.
God holds you accountable ... I am ok with that too. I know liberals aint, but I am.

he rose? who said that and what is their evidence?

I have to believe what they believe? I don't think so.
I have to hurt another human being in the name of Jesus? I aint the brightest, but that aint no-jesus's teachings.

I am not a Paul'ian

(April 1, 2014 at 5:49 am)enrico Wrote:

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: I'm struggling with something and I wanted to get others opinions on this.

It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.
My understanding is that God is supposed to withhold that knowledge - which is the point of his demanding faith. If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar? At the same time how can they demand or even request others to follow their path on the basis of faith if they have the luxury of knowledge and are not reliant on belief alone?
Anyone?

Every theist like every atheist have different point of view about their belief or non-belief.
My personal experience is that you can only feel God if you build up a relationship with him.
Forget about blind faith that may come by believing books written 2000 years ago which contain a mix of real things and a lot of made up so called truth.
This sort of belief is only theory which want take you very far.
It is like when you want to take the licence to drive a car.
You got first to learn the rules of the road and then actually drive the car.
Blind faith is only theory and nothing else so these people really never know much about God.
To know and experience God you must practice.
Prayers alone take you nowhere.
It is only when you get rid of old dogmas that the real knowledge start getting within.
A boat full of weight and junk can not go very far but as soon as you get rid of the weight and junk your boat can move.
This of course doesn't apply only to religious dogmas but also to atheist dogmas. :cool-shades:

What about insane vegan dogma?

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: My understanding is that God is supposed to withhold that knowledge - which is the point of his demanding faith.

If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar?

It's obviously an explanation for why god won't just show himself to us today. But it's such a poor explanation that you wonder why anyone would use it. Aside from the problem you describe, there is the glaring contradiction that the biblical god had no qualms about making himself known to humans in the past.

It may just be a case of "any port in a storm." When your god doesn't bother to ever show up, you have to come up with some excuse. On the other hand, do they really feel that "he won't show himself because otherwise you'd believe in him" is a good argument?

Quote:If they do have that knowledge or certainty doesn't that make God a liar?

Believers could simply be full of shit, too.

Remember:

Quote:What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also.

Gaius Julius Caesar

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.

Same goes for gnostic atheists.

Great question well put. I totally agree that such a claim negates faith. Do you have any examples that prove that this is actually the case?

(April 1, 2014 at 5:26 am)max-greece Wrote: It appears to me that we have various theists on the forum, along with innumerable famous theists / Christian Apologists etc. that claim to know, for certain, that God exists, that he's their God and so on and so forth.

In bold is the word that every intellectual should be focusing on, because a claim is not a fact.

(April 1, 2014 at 12:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Same goes for gnostic atheists.

How many of those have you seen frods? Genuine question, because I can't think of anyone here who would describe themselves as such nor have I ever seen someone on the internet or IRL that does so either.