(April 4, 2014 at 5:01 pm)ShaMan Wrote: As I said... It's misunderstood. I'm not surprised that some (most) here won't be able to discern spiritual matters. After all... You're self-professed non-spiritualists. I do not expect you or any atheist/agnostic to apprehend spiritual matters - you've shut that door. I was explaining it for the Christians who may still have the connection to perceive the teaching.

The funny thing about true things, is that you don't need to be willing to believe them for them to be demonstrable. You telling us that you can't demonstrate your claims to us because we don't immediately want to believe them is the same thing as you telling us they're false.

I can show proof of evolution to even the most ardent of creationists; why can't you do the same with your claim, to its detractors?

(April 5, 2014 at 9:24 am)Thackerie Wrote: Have you tried to promote your "teaching" on Christian forums? If so, what was their reaction?

I haven't attempted to 'promote' anything here or anywhere else. I have made some statements that are based on a lifetime of personal experience. What I believe is not sold to others, it is discerned for oneself.

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(April 5, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Esquilax Wrote: I can show proof of evolution to even the most ardent of creationists; why can't you do the same with your claim, to its detractors?

Unlike theists and atheists, I have no need to demonstrate anything to anyone who is unwilling or unable or uninterested in seeing. If, on the other hand, you were to experience for yourself the things I have personally experienced, you'd have no doubts. For the record... I can also show you 'proof' that evolution is real, but it serves no purpose other than edifying some conflated sense of self-importance for having 'evidence' and 'knowledge' on my side. Why the hostility? Have I offended you, or do my beliefs (which you have no experience with) offend you? And, if I've not offended you, then why tear down something which you are completely ignorant of?

(April 5, 2014 at 1:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(April 5, 2014 at 9:24 am)Thackerie Wrote: Have you tried to promote your "teaching" on Christian forums? If so, what was their reaction?

I haven't attempted to 'promote' anything here or anywhere else. I have made some statements that are based on a lifetime of personal experience. What I believe is not sold to others, it is discerned for oneself.

OK. That didn't answer my questions at all. I guess you didn't like the way I worded them, so I will reword and ask again.

1. Why are you trying to reach Christians on an atheist forum?

2. Have you have "made some statements that are based on a lifetime of personal experience" on Christian forums?

3. If so, what was the response?

Just trying to understand.

(April 5, 2014 at 1:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Unlike theists and atheists, I have no need to demonstrate anything to anyone who is unwilling or unable or uninterested in seeing. If, on the other hand, you were to experience for yourself the things I have personally experienced, you'd have no doubts. For the record... I can also show you 'proof' that evolution is real, but it serves no purpose other than edifying some conflated sense of self-importance for having 'evidence' and 'knowledge' on my side. Why the hostility? Have I offended you, or do my beliefs (which you have no experience with) offend you? And, if I've not offended you, then why tear down something which you are completely ignorant of?

You don't offend me. The same old, tired religious rhetoric about personal experiences and those that don't want to believe doesn't offend me either, no matter the source. But I happen to find some enjoyment in analyzing what people say, finding what works, and finding what epistemic weak points there are.

This isn't offense, it's simply an observation made in a forum designed to allow debate; reality isn't dependent on whether or not a person wants to believe it. Having knowledge, and being able to support it with evidence, isn't "self-important," it's simply a function of a rational belief system. And if you're going to start out an explanation of your beliefs with "I'm not going to address those who don't already believe, or want to, because they won't believe me," then don't get arch when somebody calls you on how spurious that is.

(April 5, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 5, 2014 at 1:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Unlike theists and atheists, I have no need to demonstrate anything to anyone who is unwilling or unable or uninterested in seeing. If, on the other hand, you were to experience for yourself the things I have personally experienced, you'd have no doubts. For the record... I can also show you 'proof' that evolution is real, but it serves no purpose other than edifying some conflated sense of self-importance for having 'evidence' and 'knowledge' on my side. Why the hostility? Have I offended you, or do my beliefs (which you have no experience with) offend you? And, if I've not offended you, then why tear down something which you are completely ignorant of?

You don't offend me. The same old, tired religious rhetoric about personal experiences and those that don't want to believe doesn't offend me either, no matter the source. But I happen to find some enjoyment in analyzing what people say, finding what works, and finding what epistemic weak points there are.

This isn't offense, it's simply an observation made in a forum designed to allow debate; reality isn't dependent on whether or not a person wants to believe it. Having knowledge, and being able to support it with evidence, isn't "self-important," it's simply a function of a rational belief system. And if you're going to start out an explanation of your beliefs with "I'm not going to address those who don't already believe, or want to, because they won't believe me," then don't get arch when somebody calls you on how spurious that is.

Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed - because that is what WE are looking for - substantiated statements from people who make them.
IF any thiest provided us - who are intelligent and logical - with proof that is both repeatable and verifiable - that without question proves that their religious belief is true - you would expect everyone to get on board.

The problem is what is expected as proof!

IF one is a christian - and a muslim would want to say that HIS religion is true - what type of PROOF would be expected from the MUSLIM to prove that xtianity is wrong?

Absolute and completely verifiable and testable proof would be expected by the xtian - not just quotes from the Koran over and over again.

The problem is that the xtian in this case really has NO proof - I note he never has published ANYTHING approaching proof of anything. All he is doing is saying that he believes =- but actually gives NO good reason for anyone else to accept the statement. So - what he does is try to change the focus to the non-believer.

(April 5, 2014 at 1:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: If, on the other hand, you were to experience for yourself the things I have personally experienced, you'd have no doubts.
[...]
Have I offended you, or do my beliefs (which you have no experience with) offend you? And, if I've not offended you, then why tear down something which you are completely ignorant of?

Why don't you share these "personal experiences" of yours with us, the less fortunate, who have never managed to experience those things?

What sort of steps would we have to take in order to experience those things?

Can they somehow, be recorded for further and posterior analysis?

(April 5, 2014 at 1:58 pm)ThomM Wrote: Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed - because that is what WE are looking for - substantiated statements from people who make them.
IF any thiest provided us - who are intelligent and logical - with proof that is both repeatable and verifiable - that without question proves that their religious belief is true - you would expect everyone to get on board.

Absolutely. I'm just saying, when a person begins their argument by outright stating that he's only addressing those already predisposed to believing him, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence as to the nature of the evidence going to be presented.

Quote:Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed

Sure....but somehow it always comes back, eventually, to "the bible says."

And the bible is a pile of shit.

(April 5, 2014 at 2:41 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 5, 2014 at 1:58 pm)ThomM Wrote: Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed - because that is what WE are looking for - substantiated statements from people who make them.
IF any thiest provided us - who are intelligent and logical - with proof that is both repeatable and verifiable - that without question proves that their religious belief is true - you would expect everyone to get on board.

Absolutely. I'm just saying, when a person begins their argument by outright stating that he's only addressing those already predisposed to believing him, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence as to the nature of the evidence going to be presented.

I believe by the tone of my response that you understand that I completely agree with you

AS I noted - An Xtian would not accept simply quotes from the Koran as proof of the god of Islam - YET - somehow they continue to quote their JUST AS USELESS bible and expect people to believe things that simply have no factual basis outside of religious writings

SO - what I did attempt to do - is set the bar to the level that would be REQUIRED for the XTIAN to admit he is wrong and accept another religion.
I see no ambiguity nor lack of reasonableness to that.

So - claimed individual "experiences" for which you offer no proof other than the written word - are no more acceptable than the Koran would be.
Results that have no statistical significance are also worthless.

Having studied the issue - I note that a number of people claim "near death" experiences as proof of their religion - when in fact they are actually of NO use in proving anything.

The problem is of course - that there are such claims for virtually ALL religions. A near death experience is actually considered a good omen in several asian religions and they tend to report more of them than any other religious group. But the main problem is that - when talking about them - ALL of the people see what they EXPECT to see - based on their religious belief or lack of. The muslims never see the christ or Peter - nor do the Hindi (Who report the most near death experiences). SO - it is simply proof that the mind is playing tricks on the person. Yet - there will be people who will still spout this nonsense - although it is NOT proof of anything.


IT is not that we are predisposed to anything against their beliefs - we are simply asking for the same thing they would want as proof against their beliefs.

(April 4, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Chas Wrote:

(April 3, 2014 at 11:11 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: This complex, intricate planet to me is evidence that there is an Intelligent Designer.

You haven't looked at it closely, have you?

You haven't looked at the amount of suffering, have you?

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(April 4, 2014 at 5:01 pm)ShaMan Wrote: As I said... It's misunderstood. I'm not surprised that some (most) here won't be able to discern spiritual matters. After all... You're self-professed non-spiritualists. I do not expect you or any atheist/agnostic to apprehend spiritual matters - you've shut that door. I was explaining it for the Christians who may still have the connection to perceive the teaching.

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Indeed!

It is your fanciful, magical thinking and delusions that I don't apprehend.

I believe the suffering is a result of the fall. God's original design was perfect and will undo all our destruction someday.