Quote:I believe the suffering is a result of the fall.

Of course, you have to be a complete shithead to accept that story as legitimate.

(April 5, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 4, 2014 at 5:01 pm)ShaMan Wrote: As I said... It's misunderstood. I'm not surprised that some (most) here won't be able to discern spiritual matters. After all... You're self-professed non-spiritualists. I do not expect you or any atheist/agnostic to apprehend spiritual matters - you've shut that door. I was explaining it for the Christians who may still have the connection to perceive the teaching.

The funny thing about true things, is that you don't need to be willing to believe them for them to be demonstrable. You telling us that you can't demonstrate your claims to us because we don't immediately want to believe them is the same thing as you telling us they're false.

I can show proof of evolution to even the most ardent of creationists; why can't you do the same with your claim, to its detractors?

Then show us proof how one species evolved into another. The fossil record doesn't show it.

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(April 5, 2014 at 4:22 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed

Sure....but somehow it always comes back, eventually, to "the bible says."

And the bible is a pile of shit.

Why do you apparently have a need to bash the Bible?

Do you ever know what you're fucking talking about or do you just run your gums and act surprised by what comes out?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/librar...34_05.html

Here, put down your fucking bible and learn something....dickhead.

Quote:Why do you apparently have a need to bash the Bible?

Because its a pile of shit.

(April 5, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I believe the suffering is a result of the fall.

Of course, you have to be a complete shithead to accept that story as legitimate.

Why do you see the need to use vulgarity?

Because I have found that pious shitheads, like you, object to it.

(April 5, 2014 at 10:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Do you ever know what you're fucking talking about or do you just run your gums and act surprised by what comes out?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/librar...34_05.html

Here, put down your fucking bible and learn something....dickhead.

Quote:Why do you apparently have a need to bash the Bible?

Because its a pile of shit.

God made the beautiful whales.

(April 5, 2014 at 9:56 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

(April 4, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Chas Wrote: You haven't looked at it closely, have you?

You haven't looked at the amount of suffering, have you?

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It is your fanciful, magical thinking and delusions that I don't apprehend.

I believe the suffering is a result of the fall. God's original design was perfect and will undo all our destruction someday.

Exactly what did your god do that was provably PERFECT?

The claim of a perfect god - is one that has always been something I could not understand - because a perfect god - would be proven that - by showing that everything it did was perfect.

And yet - it is quite clear to all who will actually look - that the claimed creations are simply NOT at all perfect. If the god was perfect - and created humans - then ALL humans should be perfect - or the god did something wrong deliberately. If imperfection was a deliberate act of god - then we are not responsible for his deliberately imperfect actions - even the bible says we are responsible for only our own actions.

If the god's plan was perfect - HOW could Imperfect humans destroy it? A perfect plan would have survived humanity. IF the god is ALL KNOWING - it knew what humans would do before it created the plan - so to make a perfect plan - it would have had to take that into account - Obviously it had a problem - lack of perfection.

In fact - a total lack of perfection. WE have stars collapsing in themselves -certainly NOT something that a HUMAN caused
THERE are whole Galaxies that are colliding with each other - again - not something a human caused as well.
Black holes are not caused by humans either.

IT is nice to claim all of these traits for a god - but in fact - reality points to the fact that these things cannot be true ALL AT ONCE.

Example - the god LIES - deliberately
THAT is the ONLY explanation for the "NEW COVENANT" claim to replace the old Covenant. Since the god supposedly is ALL knowing - then there IS no new information EVER for which it would have to change its mind. So - since the god would also have supposedly known about the "New Convenant" then it had to know that it would NOT fullfill the old one - before it made the old covenant. So - to make the old covenant was a LIE - that the god knew it would NEVER fullfill.

But the biggest problem with Monotheisms is that claim of a god that is ALL GOOD. In a monotheism there is ONLY one creator - the ONLY being with the power of creation. SO - whatever exists - good or bad - must have been created by that creator (Claiming the devil created evil means the devil had the power to create - and that makes the devil the god) So - if evil exists - it does so because it was created by the god.

IF the god is supposedly almighty - it should have the power to eliminate all evil.
IF it does have that power - and fails to do it - it is responsible for the evil still existing
IF it cannot eliminate the evil - it is NOT almighty

(April 5, 2014 at 7:09 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(April 5, 2014 at 2:41 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Absolutely. I'm just saying, when a person begins their argument by outright stating that he's only addressing those already predisposed to believing him, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence as to the nature of the evidence going to be presented.

I believe by the tone of my response that you understand that I completely agree with you

AS I noted - An Xtian would not accept simply quotes from the Koran as proof of the god of Islam - YET - somehow they continue to quote their JUST AS USELESS bible and expect people to believe things that simply have no factual basis outside of religious writings

SO - what I did attempt to do - is set the bar to the level that would be REQUIRED for the XTIAN to admit he is wrong and accept another religion.
I see no ambiguity nor lack of reasonableness to that.

So - claimed individual "experiences" for which you offer no proof other than the written word - are no more acceptable than the Koran would be.
Results that have no statistical significance are also worthless.

Having studied the issue - I note that a number of people claim "near death" experiences as proof of their religion - when in fact they are actually of NO use in proving anything.

The problem is of course - that there are such claims for virtually ALL religions. A near death experience is actually considered a good omen in several asian religions and they tend to report more of them than any other religious group. But the main problem is that - when talking about them - ALL of the people see what they EXPECT to see - based on their religious belief or lack of. The muslims never see the christ or Peter - nor do the Hindi (Who report the most near death experiences). SO - it is simply proof that the mind is playing tricks on the person. Yet - there will be people who will still spout this nonsense - although it is NOT proof of anything.


IT is not that we are predisposed to anything against their beliefs - we are simply asking for the same thing they would want as proof against their beliefs.

Jesus rose from the grave, to me this is great proof. Prove to me that nothing became something then compressed and exploded and made this vast complex universe.

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(April 5, 2014 at 10:23 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(April 5, 2014 at 9:56 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: I believe the suffering is a result of the fall. God's original design was perfect and will undo all our destruction someday.

Exactly what did your god do that was provably PERFECT?

The claim of a perfect god - is one that has always been something I could not understand - because a perfect god - would be proven that - by showing that everything it did was perfect.

And yet - it is quite clear to all who will actually look - that the claimed creations are simply NOT at all perfect. If the god was perfect - and created humans - then ALL humans should be perfect - or the god did something wrong deliberately. If imperfection was a deliberate act of god - then we are not responsible for his deliberately imperfect actions - even the bible says we are responsible for only our own actions.

If the god's plan was perfect - HOW could Imperfect humans destroy it? A perfect plan would have survived humanity. IF the god is ALL KNOWING - it knew what humans would do before it created the plan - so to make a perfect plan - it would have had to take that into account - Obviously it had a problem - lack of perfection.

In fact - a total lack of perfection. WE have stars collapsing in themselves -certainly NOT something that a HUMAN caused
THERE are whole Galaxies that are colliding with each other - again - not something a human caused as well.
Black holes are not caused by humans either.

IT is nice to claim all of these traits for a god - but in fact - reality points to the fact that these things cannot be true ALL AT ONCE.

Example - the god LIES - deliberately
THAT is the ONLY explanation for the "NEW COVENANT" claim to replace the old Covenant. Since the god supposedly is ALL knowing - then there IS no new information EVER for which it would have to change its mind. So - since the god would also have supposedly known about the "New Convenant" then it had to know that it would NOT fullfill the old one - before it made the old covenant. So - to make the old covenant was a LIE - that the god knew it would NEVER fullfill.

But the biggest problem with Monotheisms is that claim of a god that is ALL GOOD. In a monotheism there is ONLY one creator - the ONLY being with the power of creation. SO - whatever exists - good or bad - must have been created by that creator (Claiming the devil created evil means the devil had the power to create - and that makes the devil the god) So - if evil exists - it does so because it was created by the god.

IF the god is supposedly almighty - it should have the power to eliminate all evil.
IF it does have that power - and fails to do it - it is responsible for the evil still existing
IF it cannot eliminate the evil - it is NOT almighty

1. HE is Almighty and has the power to eliminate all evil.
2. He already explained in His Word that there is coming a day that He will do that.
3. He doesn't work on our timelines but His, He is God, not us.

This is my first post in this very long thread and I just want to say a couple things ...


One, I'd like to thank all the atheists for making me laugh my ass off.
Your responses to the brothers-in-christ have been witty and entertaining as well as reasonable and logical.

Two, Revelation777, you are an idiot and possibly the worst debater this site has ever seen, but I don't want you to ever leave. Your moronic responses gave everyone a chance to not only look brilliant in comparison but engage in a theater of comedy.



Thank you Atheist Forums. You are some funny fuckin people.

(April 5, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I believe the suffering is a result of the fall.

Of course, you have to be a complete shithead to accept that story as legitimate.

To me it is the most excellent news I've ever heard.

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(April 5, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Cinjin Wrote: This is my first post in this very long thread and I just want to say a couple things ...


One, I'd like to thank all the atheists for making me laugh my ass off.
Your responses to the brothers-in-christ have been witty and entertaining as well as reasonable and logical.

Two, Revelation777, you are an idiot and possibly the worst debater this site has ever seen, but I don't want you to ever leave. Your moronic responses gave everyone a chance to not only look brilliant in comparison but engage in a theater of comedy.



Thank you Atheist Forums. You are some funny fuckin people.

Perhaps I need to work on my debating skills but you are probably bias because you are an atheists. The Romans found it entertaining to throw believers to the lions. Not too much has changed I guess?