(April 12, 2014 at 11:50 am)ThomM Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am)Godlesspanther Wrote: Always having been on the outside it seems mind-boggling to me that people are really unable to see the blatant dishonesty of creationism. Every single one of the prominent creation dope-pushers is a shameless liar and obviously so.

As Aron Ra has said many time, to paraphrase, that there comes a time in a creationists' education and life experience when they are faced with the question-- "Do you want to be a creationist or do you want to be honest?"

I suspect that those who remain creationists after that point of education and knowledge just really don't care about whether something is true or false. The doctrine must come first no matter what.

Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Religion knows that they cannot enforce beliefs that disagree with proven reality - and the end result of trying to do so is to alienate the next generation.

The problem is that religion was the center of the culture of many of the older people of the world - regardless of which religion or sub-religion they believed in. And it is only now that the older generation of complete believers is actually dying off. Studies have already shown that a majority of the young people do not believe in creation - and even in religion itself - but put on a front to sidestep family problems - knowing that eventually that problem will go away. And these young people have no intention of following religion once they have less family problems with it.

But for most who otherwise still believe in an afterlife and a god - even if their beliefs do not accept the whole of their religion - it is largely a belief that there must be something more than just our life here on earth. There has to be a "better" place to go to afterwards. And the priests of religion are only eager to take those people's money and say whatever is needed to keep the cash cow alive.

Still - religion is waning in the educated areas of the world. Studies have shown it is heading toward extinction in several European countries - plus Australia. The problem for religion is money. While religion is still spreading among the third world countries where belief in superstition is still rampant and education is still poor - the problem is that these countries cannot support the religions monetarily. While the Xtian religions have largely survived on Western and USA money - as the aging population of believers dwindles - there is no new source for money - and that is why there are so many closed churches. Add a shortage of clergy too.

Science and education - and reality - have worked to prove that religion is a thing of the past.

God will never be out of style.

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(April 13, 2014 at 11:07 am)Minimalist Wrote: Two weeks?

I wrote the asshole off on Day #1.

I still like you.

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(April 13, 2014 at 10:02 am)ElDinero Wrote: You certainly will need to use resources, Rev, but you have been advised that the resources available at those websites has been discredited. If you persist in using it, do not expect people to be impressed or swayed in any way whatsoever. I'm sure you have been recommended some reading on the subject. You should investigate it if you have any interest in being taken seriously, because to not do so would show that you are either too afraid, stupid or blinkered to read up on the subject.

Let's see how things go. I want to explore a variety of resources. If you are not interested in responding to the threads I understand.

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(April 13, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Mothonis_Cathicgal Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: Did you see it?

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But all have sinned. Even before we sinned, it appears that Adam and Eve were enjoying their fellowship with the Creator.

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Why such anger?

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I find it interesting how atheists are quick to judge the Bible but few have read it objectively from cover to cover. Christian movies the same. If you really don't want to believe something, Jesus appearing before you may not convince you.

Hey Rev, its me Mothonis here to poke holes in you assertions

1.Many people including christians were disgusted at the film.

2.Sin is imaginary

3.Atheists read the bible objectivly and find it appalling.Its christians who are indoctrinated and have biased views.If Jesus appeared before me I would think i was hallucinateing.That film was just there to bash Atheists every character who wasn't a christian was considered extremely evil.

I am willing to pay for your tickets if you are willing to go see it.

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(April 13, 2014 at 3:37 am)DarkHorse Wrote: But isn't that what we've come to expect from Rev? Not the mention a lot of other Xtians that come here.

I am sorry Darkhorse that you have low expectations of me. Yes, Katy Perry's song and video has illuminati occultic overtones.

(April 13, 2014 at 3:02 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:50 am)ThomM Wrote: Actually - the 7 largest xtian sects - representing over 75% of the worlds xtians - accept that evolution happened - although they disagree on the origin of initial "life". It is a relatively few sects that require the absolute belief in the inerrancy of the bible - down to Adam and Eve - and it can be shown that few of those actually believe the creation stories of the bible anyway.

Religion knows that they cannot enforce beliefs that disagree with proven reality - and the end result of trying to do so is to alienate the next generation.

The problem is that religion was the center of the culture of many of the older people of the world - regardless of which religion or sub-religion they believed in. And it is only now that the older generation of complete believers is actually dying off. Studies have already shown that a majority of the young people do not believe in creation - and even in religion itself - but put on a front to sidestep family problems - knowing that eventually that problem will go away. And these young people have no intention of following religion once they have less family problems with it.

But for most who otherwise still believe in an afterlife and a god - even if their beliefs do not accept the whole of their religion - it is largely a belief that there must be something more than just our life here on earth. There has to be a "better" place to go to afterwards. And the priests of religion are only eager to take those people's money and say whatever is needed to keep the cash cow alive.

Still - religion is waning in the educated areas of the world. Studies have shown it is heading toward extinction in several European countries - plus Australia. The problem for religion is money. While religion is still spreading among the third world countries where belief in superstition is still rampant and education is still poor - the problem is that these countries cannot support the religions monetarily. While the Xtian religions have largely survived on Western and USA money - as the aging population of believers dwindles - there is no new source for money - and that is why there are so many closed churches. Add a shortage of clergy too.

Science and education - and reality - have worked to prove that religion is a thing of the past.

God will never be out of style.

---

(April 13, 2014 at 11:07 am)Minimalist Wrote: Two weeks?

I wrote the asshole off on Day #1.

I still like you.

---

(April 13, 2014 at 10:02 am)ElDinero Wrote: You certainly will need to use resources, Rev, but you have been advised that the resources available at those websites has been discredited. If you persist in using it, do not expect people to be impressed or swayed in any way whatsoever. I'm sure you have been recommended some reading on the subject. You should investigate it if you have any interest in being taken seriously, because to not do so would show that you are either too afraid, stupid or blinkered to read up on the subject.

Let's see how things go. I want to explore a variety of resources. If you are not interested in responding to the threads I understand.

---

(April 13, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Mothonis_Cathicgal Wrote: Hey Rev, its me Mothonis here to poke holes in you assertions

1.Many people including christians were disgusted at the film.

2.Sin is imaginary

3.Atheists read the bible objectivly and find it appalling.Its christians who are indoctrinated and have biased views.If Jesus appeared before me I would think i was hallucinateing.That film was just there to bash Atheists every character who wasn't a christian was considered extremely evil.

I am willing to pay for your tickets if you are willing to go see it.

I saw the trailer for it and spotted several fallacys with it.Second how would you send the money,is Jesus going to deliver it?

I give my repent from wrong doings to REAL people. It's no shame to apologize when you've been an ass.

'Repent' as christians like to claim is all a big pile of shit. Repent of what? To an imaginary being for being a human that that imaginary being created that way? How stupid do you have to be to believe that shit?!

(April 12, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 8:07 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: I recommend you go watch the movie, "God Is Not Dead" I saw it today and it was very moving.

That movie is one giant, fallacious, stereotypical Christian joke and not a particularly funny one either. The fact that you found it "very moving" says a lot about you.

I don't need to see the movie.

I've read the Chick tract and it wasn't very good.

(April 13, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: I find it interesting how atheists are quick to judge the Bible but few have read it objectively from cover to cover. Christian movies the same. If you really don't want to believe something, Jesus appearing before you may not convince you.

So what's an "objective" reading, to you? One that agrees totally with it?

Is it possible to be an atheist and have read the bible objectively, Rev?

Now, as to the movie, I haven't seen it (don't judge, I literally can't: it's not out in Australia and I doubt it'd get a wide release anyway) but I have read about the film, including in depth articles that go, almost point by point, through its entire running time and rebut every contention raised.

I may not have seen it, but I know the storyline and the arguments raised; the former is a grotesque revenge fantasy dressed up as piety, and the latter are horrendously hypocritical riffs on "you can't prove god doesn't exist so therefore he does, and it doesn't matter anyway, because all you atheists really do believe in god, you just hate him."

Frankly, it makes me wonder if you are capable of looking at things objectively. I know a lot of people here are really dismissive of you, and I find that really frustrating because I know they'd do otherwise if you did more than post one sentence responses. You can look back, man; you can read conversations that have taken place here, pages long, with theists who actually engaged with us, and that should demonstrate just how the majority of us treat those believers who come to us open and willing to learn. Hell, the only thing I myself have told you is that you should use sources that are actually in a position to know what they're talking about, which I don't think is a terribly controversial piece of advice.

The portrayal of atheists in "God's Not Dead" is nothing more than a series of regurgitated strawmen and stereotypes. Does it make you feel good, knowing that the way these people from your religion thought was the best way to make their case was to lie and demonize us, instead of just presenting their point of view? Are you comfortable in the knowledge that this representation of your religion relies on projection and dishonesty to bolster the faithful?

Are you really sure you want to be shilling for this movie, and thus making yourself complicit in its blatant, heedless propaganda?

(April 13, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 10:33 am)Thackerie Wrote: Fundies have to believe that Adam and Eve really were the first humans, that they really committed the "original sin" that got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden, that all subsequent humans inherited this propensity to sin, and that only Jesus can clear us of this sin trait (if only we believe, confess our sins, and repent) and thereby enable us to avoid Hell and go to Heaven.

Without the illness (original sin), there's no need for a cure (Jesus!!!!) and the whole religion falls apart.

But all have sinned. Even before we sinned, it appears that Adam and Eve were enjoying their fellowship with the Creator.

Let's get this straight, buttercup. "Sin" is defined as a transgression against divine law. You and fellow believers, going back thousands of years, have utterly failed to establish that any such thing as divine law exists. I don't believe it does.

I have never sinned -- not once, not ever -- and neither have you or anyone else.

On the other hand, people may commit crimes, misdemeanors, slights, and other bad acts. Ethical people make up for their bad acts on their own -- no imaginary deities needed; when possible, they make amends or reparation directly to the people affected by their bad acts. IMO, Christians who practice only substitutional atonement are NOT moral.

(April 13, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Thackerie Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 2:39 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: But all have sinned. Even before we sinned, it appears that Adam and Eve were enjoying their fellowship with the Creator.

Let's get this straight, buttercup. "Sin" is defined as a transgression against divine law. You and fellow believers, going back thousands of years, have utterly failed to establish that any such thing as divine law exists. I don't believe it does.

Therefore, I have never sinned -- not once, not ever -- and neither have you or anyone else.

On the other hand, people may commit crimes, misdemeanors, slights, and other bad acts. Ethical people make up for their bad acts on their own -- no imaginary deities needed; when possible, they make amends or reparation directly to the people affected by their bad acts. IMO, Christians who practice only substitutional atonement are NOT moral.

Where did you get that definition of sin? If you don't believe in a God, then how can you define morality? Who defines what is right or wrong?

(April 13, 2014 at 3:40 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Thackerie Wrote: Let's get this straight, buttercup. "Sin" is defined as a transgression against divine law. You and fellow believers, going back thousands of years, have utterly failed to establish that any such thing as divine law exists. I don't believe it does.

Therefore, I have never sinned -- not once, not ever -- and neither have you or anyone else.

On the other hand, people may commit crimes, misdemeanors, slights, and other bad acts. Ethical people make up for their bad acts on their own -- no imaginary deities needed; when possible, they make amends or reparation directly to the people affected by their bad acts. IMO, Christians who practice only substitutional atonement are NOT moral.

Where did you get that definition of sin? If you don't believe in a God, then how can you define morality? Who defines what is right or wrong?

Unmovable powers certainly do not get to define what morality is. In evolutionary reality we seek cooperation and consent, something your head character you falsely believe to be real, doesn't need. In reality we call such rulers who don't need our input "dictators". Congratulations, you worship a dictator.

(April 13, 2014 at 3:40 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:

(April 13, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Thackerie Wrote: Let's get this straight, buttercup. "Sin" is defined as a transgression against divine law. You and fellow believers, going back thousands of years, have utterly failed to establish that any such thing as divine law exists. I don't believe it does.

Therefore, I have never sinned -- not once, not ever -- and neither have you or anyone else.

On the other hand, people may commit crimes, misdemeanors, slights, and other bad acts. Ethical people make up for their bad acts on their own -- no imaginary deities needed; when possible, they make amends or reparation directly to the people affected by their bad acts. IMO, Christians who practice only substitutional atonement are NOT moral.

Where did you get that definition of sin?

There's this thing called a "dictionary." It defines sin as
1. transgression of divine law.
2.any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.

If you don't believe in a God, then how can you define morality? Who defines what is right or wrong?

We human beings, just like always.

(April 13, 2014 at 3:40 pm)Revelation777 Wrote: Where did you get that definition of sin? If you don't believe in a God, then how can you define morality? Who defines what is right or wrong?

You insult yourself, Rev: personally, I don't think you're that stunted that you don't know you live in a world where you can reliably predict what will hurt or benefit people, and plan your actions accordingly. I'm not going to go to my usual argument, just point out that it's entirely possible to know what's right or wrong based on the reality you inhabit, and that having a "who" define morality means you don't have a moral system at all, just fiat commands.

If god commanded you to do something that you, right now, know to be wrong, would that make it right?

If yes, then you don't have morality, just obedience.

If no, then you have morality, and god evidently isn't required for it to exist.