(April 15, 2014 at 10:47 am)pocaracas Wrote: The options are limited by your imagination, at this stage... so... anything goes!
Are you sure you want to discuss something on such a shaky ground?

I would say rather that the options are limited to what most people would find reasonable.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:01 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 10:47 am)pocaracas Wrote: The options are limited by your imagination, at this stage... so... anything goes!
Are you sure you want to discuss something on such a shaky ground?

I would say rather that the options are limited to what most people would find reasonable.

What is reasonable, when all the rules we know of break down?

(April 15, 2014 at 11:10 am)pocaracas Wrote: What is reasonable, when all the rules we know of break down?

Eternal existence or a beginning are two options that IMO would seem reasonable to most people. Seems logical.

(April 15, 2014 at 9:08 am)alpha male Wrote: It's my understanding that the laws of nature came about just after the big bang, so I doubt that anyone can say they understand the nature of the universe prior to the big bang.

Except that there was no universe prior to the big bang.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:14 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:10 am)pocaracas Wrote: What is reasonable, when all the rules we know of break down?

Eternal existence or a beginning are two options that IMO would seem reasonable to most people. Seems logical.

Yes, those are reasonable... but there are many more.
Again, keep in mind that "eternal existence" would require time and time is not a guaranteed to exist at this stage.
Also, multidimensional time may exist out of the known universe, which can bring about some weird stuff. I can't think about it, I cannot wrap my head around 2-D time, but, at this stage, it can't be dismissed. This sort of thing is what I mean by "the rules we know of" breaking down.
Virtually anything is possible.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:29 am)pocaracas Wrote: Again, keep in mind that "eternal existence" would require time and time is not a guaranteed to exist at this stage.
Also, multidimensional time may exist out of the known universe, which can bring about some weird stuff. I can't think about it, I cannot wrap my head around 2-D time, but, at this stage, it can't be dismissed. This sort of thing is what I mean by "the rules we know of" breaking down.
Virtually anything is possible.

As those go beyond (or outside or whatever) the laws of nature, they're appeals to supernatural explanations.

(April 15, 2014 at 9:08 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 8:41 am)pocaracas Wrote: You have clearly not understood what a singularity is.
Don't worry, it's normal not to understand it... it is a difficult concept, as it is a warping of space-time, turning these into something beyond our intuitive understanding of both time and space.
I can only tell you that what you wrote makes no sense. It's sort of like saying "if the square has round sides,".

It's my understanding that the laws of nature came about just after the big bang, so I doubt that anyone can say they understand the nature of the universe prior to the big bang.

This after countless "first cause" arguments where AM claimed the exact opposite.

---

(April 15, 2014 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:29 am)pocaracas Wrote: Again, keep in mind that "eternal existence" would require time and time is not a guaranteed to exist at this stage.
Also, multidimensional time may exist out of the known universe, which can bring about some weird stuff. I can't think about it, I cannot wrap my head around 2-D time, but, at this stage, it can't be dismissed. This sort of thing is what I mean by "the rules we know of" breaking down.
Virtually anything is possible.

As those go beyond (or outside or whatever) the laws of nature, they're appeals to supernatural explanations.

"We don't know, anything is possible" is not an appeal to a supernatural explanation.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:29 am)pocaracas Wrote: Again, keep in mind that "eternal existence" would require time and time is not a guaranteed to exist at this stage.
Also, multidimensional time may exist out of the known universe, which can bring about some weird stuff. I can't think about it, I cannot wrap my head around 2-D time, but, at this stage, it can't be dismissed. This sort of thing is what I mean by "the rules we know of" breaking down.
Virtually anything is possible.

As those go beyond (or outside or whatever) the laws of nature, they're appeals to supernatural explanations.

Supernatural, you say?
Well, I don't think I was providing an explanation... I was merely pointing out that we don't know how things work at what is known as a singularity, hence, no explanation is valid... as such, any can be valid which renders each of them useless, until we find out some more about the singularity (if that is at all possible).
Sure, we can speculate to our heart's content, but, in the end, mental masturbation is still just that... well, it can sell books, so there's that. If you're inclined to it, you may use any of my speculations to write your book(s) and make money off them.
One speculation has sold countless books and boasts of having been involved with the first book ever printed, so I sense big bucks in there!

(April 15, 2014 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote: As those go beyond (or outside or whatever) the laws of nature, they're appeals to supernatural explanations.

I don't see how any existent thing could be "supernatural." If there is a super-universe of which this universe is just a part, or a super-time which allows for the creation of the temporal framework of this universe, that would still be perfectly natural.

You seem to be arguing for a kind of species solilpsism-- what we can't experience must therefore not exist.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:29 am)pocaracas Wrote: Again, keep in mind that "eternal existence" would require time and time is not a guaranteed to exist at this stage.
Also, multidimensional time may exist out of the known universe, which can bring about some weird stuff. I can't think about it, I cannot wrap my head around 2-D time, but, at this stage, it can't be dismissed. This sort of thing is what I mean by "the rules we know of" breaking down.
Virtually anything is possible.

As those go beyond (or outside or whatever) the laws of nature, they're appeals to supernatural explanations.

Oh Please.

The idiot special pledging again.

God is true because god is exampt, by special decree of idiot christians, from being found false.