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May 9, 2014 at 6:40 am (This post was last modified: May 9, 2014 at 6:47 am by Confused Ape.)
(May 9, 2014 at 12:09 am)Revelation777 Wrote: If someone believes God is the Creator, how is that being dishonest? To be it is being genuine.
I don't think that someone who believes God is the creator is being dishonest. Misguided, yes, but not dishonest. What I do regard as dishonest is taking the attitude of "This is how I think God ought to have done it so I'm ignoring all evidence that he did it a different way."
(May 9, 2014 at 12:35 am)Revelation777 Wrote: Read Genesis 1 for clarity:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Did you read that article which points out how Genesis can be interpreted to support evolution?
(May 9, 2014 at 12:35 am)Revelation777 Wrote: He will come as a thief in the night.
How apt.
Quote:Read Genesis 1 for clarity:
And then read Genesis 2 to undermine any "clarity" provided by the first account. Which is what happens when you mash two versions of an ancient story together.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
(May 9, 2014 at 1:17 am)Revelation777 Wrote: He has, He sent His prophets and His Son and man rejected their message and killed them. What more do you want Him to do?
God sucking my dick without an intermediary would probably do it for me.
This was your first link in writing: my comments in blue
Studying the origin of life
The origin of life might seem like the ultimate cold case: no one was there to observe it and much of the relevant evidence has been lost in the intervening 3.5 billion years or so. Nonetheless, many separate lines of evidence do shed light on this event, and as biologists continue to investigate these data, they are slowly piecing together a picture of how life originated. Major lines of evidence include DNA, biochemistry, and experiments.
These scientists were not there, they are trying to piece together a picture, hardly evidence.
Origins and DNA evidence
Biologists use the DNA sequences of modern organisms to reconstruct the tree of life and to figure out the likely characteristics of the most recent common ancestor of all living things — the "trunk" of the tree of life. In fact, according to some hypotheses, this "most recent common ancestor" may actually be a set of organisms that lived at the same time and were able to swap genes easily. In either case, reconstructing the early branches on the tree of life tells us that this ancestor (or set of ancestors) probably used DNA as its genetic material and performed complex chemical reactions. But what came before it? We know that this last common ancestor must have had ancestors of its own - a long line of forebears forming the root of the tree of life - but to learn about them, we must turn to other lines of evidence.
Just because organisms have DNA with common genetic materials doesn't prove all species have a common ancestor.
The 3 domains that include all living things, the most recent common ancestor of all living things, and forebear lineages from before that most recent common ancestor
Origins and biochemical evidence
By studying the basic biochemistry shared by many organisms, we can begin to piece together how biochemical systems evolved near the root of the tree of life. However, up until the early 1980s, biologists were stumped by a "chicken and egg" problem: in all modern organisms, nucleic acids (DNA and RNA) are necessary to build proteins, and proteins are necessary to build nucleic acids - so which came first, the nucleic acid or the protein? This problem was solved when a new property of RNA was discovered: some kinds of RNA can catalyze chemical reactions — and that means that RNA can both store genetic information and cause the chemical reactions necessary to copy itself. This breakthrough tentatively solved the chicken and egg problem: nucleic acids (and specifically, RNA) came first — and later on, life switched to DNA-based inheritance.
Where did the RNA come from?
Another important line of biochemical evidence comes in the form of surprisingly common molecules. As you might expect, many of the chemical reactions occurring in your own cells, in the cells of a fungus, and in a bacterial cell are quite different from one another; however, many of them (such as those that release energy to power cellular work) are exactly the same and rely on the exact same molecules. Because these molecules are widespread and are critically important to all life, they are thought to have arisen very early in the history of life and have been nicknamed "molecular fossils." ATP, adenosine triphosphate (shown below), is one such molecule; it is essential for powering cellular processes and is used by all modern life. Studying ATP and other molecular fossils, has revealed a surprising commonality: many molecular fossils are closely related to nucleic acids, as shown below.
adenine nucleotide and ATP
The discoveries of catalytic RNA and of molecular fossils closely related to nucleic acids suggest that nucleic acids (and specifically, RNA) were crucial to Earth's first life. These observations support the RNA world hypothesis, that early life used RNA for basic cellular processes (instead of the mix of proteins, RNA, and DNA used by modern organisms).
What if God created the RNA and DNA in all living things?
Origins and experimental evidence
Experiments can help scientists figure out how the molecules involved in the RNA world arose. These experiments serve as "proofs of concept" for hypotheses about steps in the origin of life — in other words, if a particular chemical reaction happens in a modern lab under conditions similar to those on early Earth, the same reaction could have happened on early Earth and could have played a role in the origin of life. The 1953 Miller-Urey experiment, for example, simulated early Earth's atmosphere with nothing more than water, hydrogen, ammonia, and methane and an electrical charge standing in for lightning, and produced complex organic compounds like amino acids. Now, scientists have learned more about the environmental and atmospheric conditions on early Earth and no longer think that the conditions used by Miller and Urey were quite right. However, since Miller and Urey, many scientists have performed experiments using more accurate environmental conditions and exploring alternate scenarios for these reactions. These experiments yielded similar results - complex molecules could have formed in the conditions on early Earth.
This experimental approach can also help scientists study the functioning of the RNA world itself. For example, origins biochemist, Andy Ellington, hypothesizes that in the early RNA world, RNA copied itself, not by matching individual units of the molecules (as in modern DNA), but by matching short strings of units — it's a bit like assembling a house from prefabricated walls instead of brick by brick. He is studying this hypothesis by performing experiments to search for molecules that copy themselves like this and to study how they evolve.
Two views of RNA replication in the early RNA world
A knotty problem...
All the evidence gathered thus far has revealed a great deal about the origin of life, but there is still much to learn. Because of the enormous length of time and the tremendous change that has occurred since then, much of the evidence relevant to origins has been lost and we may never know certain details. Nevertheless, many of the gaps in our knowledge (gaps that seemed unbridgeable just 20 years ago) have been filled in recent years, and continuing research and new technologies hold the promise of more insights. As Ellington puts it, "Origins is a huge knotty problem — but that doesn't mean it's an insoluble one."
The Origins Problem: knotty, but not insoluble.
It remains a knotty problem, and this whole article doesn't disprove my argument.
Rev, why do you think that it is compelling to just make assertions? You understand that it is not saying anything at all to just say these things you've put in blue. You are not arguing anything. You are making inane assertions.
Not that it really needs to be done, but just to prove, yet again, that ICR lies. They create false claims, and show that the evidence doesn't add up. It is a common creationist tactic.
ConMen Wrote:But despite Bada's optimistic assessment of the study's results, the fact is that after decades of experiments, scientists are no closer to creating life in the lab than Miller and Urey were in the 1950s.
In this example, they have made it look like the Miller Urey experiment set out to create life. And since they didn't do that, they failed miserably, right? Wrong.
Wikipedia Wrote:Specifically, the experiment tested Alexander Oparin's and J. B. S. Haldane's hypothesis that conditions on the primitive Earth favored chemical reactions that synthesized more complex organic compounds from simpler organic precursors.
Literally the third line in the wikipedia page. All it would have taken is 30 seconds of research to see that yet again, the con men have had you. The only way creationists can argue against facts is to misconstrue them and lie.
Let's face it, Rev. You are not interested in looking at or considering anything that runs even slightly contrary to your worldview. You are intellectually dishonest, and sometimes overtly dishonest, and you are supremely disrespectful of everyone else's intelligence by repeatedly posting ridiculous links.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join!--->There's an app and everything!<---
May 9, 2014 at 11:02 am (This post was last modified: May 9, 2014 at 11:09 am by Chas.)
(May 8, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Revelation777 Wrote:
(May 7, 2014 at 5:50 pm)Chas Wrote: Who are you to claim there is a god? Or to assert his characteristics?
Jesus made the claim He is the Son of God.
You're not Jesus.
(May 8, 2014 at 2:25 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:
(May 8, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Talk your mother that died 2 years ago your nuts.
Not if you say you're a Spiritualist. Spiritualism is a recognised religion.
And that somehow makes it not nuts?
(May 9, 2014 at 12:29 am)Revelation777 Wrote:
(May 8, 2014 at 1:11 pm)Esquilax Wrote: How do you know Jesus existed?
He lives in my heart.
So do heartworms.
(May 9, 2014 at 12:35 am)Revelation777 Wrote:
(May 9, 2014 at 12:00 am)Kitanetos Wrote: Except he never will.
He will come as a thief in the night. Please repent before it is too late.
(May 9, 2014 at 12:12 am)eyemixer Wrote: I am having difficulty understanding what you mean by 'kind' as it is not a scientific term nor have I ever seen it used in a biology course.
Can you explain what you mean by 'kind'? I do not need any fancy language, simply what you understand a 'kind' to mean in your own words.
I am not claiming you are wrong, I just don't understand what you mean by the term and that confusion makes any meaningful conversation impossible, contrary to the goals of a discussion forum I believe.
Read Genesis 1 for clarity:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
So sharks and whales and cod are all the same 'kind'?
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
(May 6, 2014 at 10:54 am)rasetsu Wrote: So, is it your entire objection that ERVs aren't evidence for evolution and common descent because God "could've done it that way" ?
God can do as He well pleases. If you make your own universe then do as you please.
(May 9, 2014 at 12:23 am)Revelation777 Wrote:
(May 7, 2014 at 6:43 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: I suppose if you're willing to invoke magic, you can "justify" belief in anything.
I don't believe in invoking magic, I believe in the Holy Bible.
First you invoked that God can do anything, literally anything, a kind of magic, and then you claim you don't invoke magic.
One of these statements is a lie. Which one is it, Rev?
Regardless, that ERVs can be made consistent with the God hypothesis by invoking magic doesn't make them any less strong as evidence for evolution, as they are consistent with that hypothesis as well. They are a startling confirmation of common descent even IF you could achieve the same result with 'magic'. Do you have any actual evidence that God rather than evolution did it, or are you gonna settle for invoking magic as an answer?
(May 9, 2014 at 1:31 pm)LastPoet Wrote: This one has been beaten to death and now rev is just preaching. Is there an argument number 3?
Did you really think the likes of Revs could ever have had another purpose for being here than to preach, using whatever disguise they imagined would help them get through the vigilance of those who have become inured to normal modes of christain proselytizing?
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