(May 16, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 15, 2014 at 9:21 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Nice apologetic try, but no, he said clearly that they already believed. If you take the idea that they didn't believe in jesus yet, then the first line falls apart, that they were believers and disciples. Furthermore, it was john that baptized jesus. John definitely was preaching about the correct god and jesus in christian doctrine. Are you claiming that John the baptist was not in touch with the correct god? Was he a mormon or something?

Besides if you did have a correct baptism, you should be hearing messages from the holy spirit, just like these twelve, yet you don't. I'm sure they used to think that they were supposed to have their conversations with god through the scriptures as well, just like you.

{or else they were delusional, just_like_you.}

They were disciples according to what they knew, and they were referred to as disciples, not believers. They told Paul that they had never heard of the Holy Spirit and had only received John's baptism of repentance. They believed in the coming messiah, but evidently hadn't heard that Jesus had come or they would have received his baptism. John was baptizing people before Jesus revealed himself in public and, therefore, baptized many people who had not yet heard of Jesus. By the way, baptism isn't the saving act, but just a confirmation of what we believe. When they received Jesus' baptism, they were confirming their belief in him. Why are you so hung up on messages from the Holy Spirit anyway? He works in my life every day. Am I supposed to get voice or text messages or what? God has never communicated directly with me in words, except through the scriptures.

I really hate when shoe leather Christians say "we believe __________" as if they or whatever sect they belong to speaks for all Christians.

Quote:There are differences in views about the effect of baptism for a Christian. Some Christian groups assert baptism is a requirement for salvation and a sacrament, and speak of "baptismal regeneration". Its importance may be understood by an informed knowledge of their interpretation of the most fundamental and basic meaning of the "Mystical Body of Christ" as found in the New Testament.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism

(May 16, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Lek Wrote: Why are you so hung up on messages from the Holy Spirit anyway? He works in my life every day. Am I supposed to get voice or text messages or what? God has never communicated directly with me in words, except through the scriptures.

Because, lacking any credible external source, what you're saying sounds to us like "I'm interpreting the Bible so it says what I want it to say, and I have God's approval", especially when you have 2 billion other Christians getting very different, often directly conflicting, messages using the same exact method you use.

And for some stupid fucking reason, we're asked to disprove this. You don't question or subject your beliefs to any kind of rigor at all. Why would you? You're making every bit of it up.

(May 16, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 15, 2014 at 9:21 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Nice apologetic try, but no, he said clearly that they already believed. If you take the idea that they didn't believe in jesus yet, then the first line falls apart, that they were believers and disciples. Furthermore, it was john that baptized jesus. John definitely was preaching about the correct god and jesus in christian doctrine. Are you claiming that John the baptist was not in touch with the correct god? Was he a mormon or something?

Besides if you did have a correct baptism, you should be hearing messages from the holy spirit, just like these twelve, yet you don't. I'm sure they used to think that they were supposed to have their conversations with god through the scriptures as well, just like you.

{or else they were delusional, just_like_you.}

They were disciples according to what they knew, and they were referred to as disciples, not believers. They told Paul that they had never heard of the Holy Spirit and had only received John's baptism of repentance. They believed in the coming messiah, but evidently hadn't heard that Jesus had come or they would have received his baptism. John was baptizing people before Jesus revealed himself in public and, therefore, baptized many people who had not yet heard of Jesus. By the way, baptism isn't the saving act, but just a confirmation of what we believe. When they received Jesus' baptism, they were confirming their belief in him. Why are you so hung up on messages from the Holy Spirit anyway? He works in my life every day. Am I supposed to get voice or text messages or what? God has never communicated directly with me in words, except through the scriptures.

Wow you are really grasping at straws here. John's baptism was "certified" as correct because the Gospel accounts here:
Luke 1
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. <foretold by his father with the "holy spirit!">

And of course by the fact that jesus felt it was a complete act of righteousness to be baptized by john.
If john had any error in his theology he would would have been rebuked by Jesus and others. John only baptized believers, a non-believer would hardly have stood for the farce, do you think he swam up behind people and dunked them? Furthermore his calling card was to preach repentance to god, who (spoiler alert!) is also jesus!
There is no basis to claim that the ghostless disciples were not believers in the right god. They simply hadn't had the right "mumbo jumbo magic words" spoken while they were dunked in water.

Now as to why I zero in on the whole "holy ghost" "speaking to god" angle.
Christians today have a problem in that they never get confirmation that they are really saved or that anyone heard their prayer of salvation. Because christians don't hear from god in any real way, they are forced to either invent the conversations, or rationalize away the need. The claim that jesus loves you, but won't talk to you, despite talking to millions of others in the past according to the scriptures, is very hard to explain, except with the obvious "you're wrong about his existence answer."

Why would god not communicate with his children whom he supposedly loves? Wouldn't you communicate with those you love if you could?
Does it really make any sense that god talks to neitherthe believer nor the unbeliever today, but bellowed to everyone passing in the biblical examples?

(May 17, 2014 at 1:12 am)Brakeman Wrote: Wow you are really grasping at straws here. John's baptism was "certified" as correct because the Gospel accounts here:
Luke 1
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. <foretold by his father with the "holy spirit!">

And of course by the fact that jesus felt it was a complete act of righteousness to be baptized by john.
If john had any error in his theology he would would have been rebuked by Jesus and others. John only baptized believers, a non-believer would hardly have stood for the farce, do you think he swam up behind people and dunked them? Furthermore his calling card was to preach repentance to god, who (spoiler alert!) is also jesus!
There is no basis to claim that the ghostless disciples were not believers in the right god. They simply hadn't had the right "mumbo jumbo magic words" spoken while they were dunked in water.

Now as to why I zero in on the whole "holy ghost" "speaking to god" angle.
Christians today have a problem in that they never get confirmation that they are really saved or that anyone heard their prayer of salvation. Because christians don't hear from god in any real way, they are forced to either invent the conversations, or rationalize away the need. The claim that jesus loves you, but won't talk to you, despite talking to millions of others in the past according to the scriptures, is very hard to explain, except with the obvious "you're wrong about his existence answer."

Why would god not communicate with his children whom he supposedly loves? Wouldn't you communicate with those you love if you could?
Does it really make any sense that god talks to neitherthe believer nor the unbeliever today, but bellowed to everyone passing in the biblical examples?

John's baptism was not in error, but it was incomplete. Those being baptized were not acknowledging that God had come in the flesh. They were repenting for their sins and acknowledging that a messiah was coming. God didn't talk to millions of people in the old testament; just certain individuals who were specially involved in his plan to bring the messiah to the world. You're putting words in my mouth about God not communicating with me. He does communicate with me; but not in spoken words. You think if he is real he must speak to us directly in English or whatever language we speak, but that's not the way it is. That's just the way you've decided it should be.

That's interesting. Because you seem to believe your understanding of the English translation of a translation is superior to biblical scholars.

One of the defining characteristics of any individual Christian is that they are the sole and final word on what the Bible actually means.

(May 17, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: One of the defining characteristics of any individual Christian is that they are the sole and final word on what the Bible actually means.

Though the livestock typically prefers to lazily agree with the meaning given by the "shepherd," "pastor," or "priest" who guards over the herd, keeping watch out for the Devil, or people like us.

(May 17, 2014 at 2:25 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(May 17, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: One of the defining characteristics of any individual Christian is that they are the sole and final word on what the Bible actually means.

Though the livestock typically prefers to lazily agree with the meaning given by the "shepherd," "pastor," or "priest" who guards over the herd, keeping watch out for the Devil, or people like us.

If we all interpret the bible the same, like a rule book, you call us sheep. If we think and interpret the bible as thinking individuals that means we can't get it together, and that means it's all wrong. The truth is God wants us to follow him, but to think and decide that for ourselves. I've decided on my own to follow him and you've decided not to. That's the way he made us. Sorry that I think for myself, not necessarily as the rest of the world thinks I should.

(May 18, 2014 at 11:51 am)Lek Wrote:

(May 17, 2014 at 2:25 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Though the livestock typically prefers to lazily agree with the meaning given by the "shepherd," "pastor," or "priest" who guards over the herd, keeping watch out for the Devil, or people like us.

If we all interpret the bible the same, like a rule book, you call us sheep. If we think and interpret the bible as thinking individuals that means we can't get it together, and that means it's all wrong. The truth is God wants us to follow him, but to think and decide that for ourselves. I've decided on my own to follow him and you've decided not to. That's the way he made us. Sorry that I think for myself, not necessarily as the rest of the world thinks I should.

If you think for yourself then answer me this. What is more likely, the entire natural order of things was suspended or that a Jewish maiden told a lie to her husband?

(May 18, 2014 at 11:57 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(May 18, 2014 at 11:51 am)Lek Wrote: If we all interpret the bible the same, like a rule book, you call us sheep. If we think and interpret the bible as thinking individuals that means we can't get it together, and that means it's all wrong. The truth is God wants us to follow him, but to think and decide that for ourselves. I've decided on my own to follow him and you've decided not to. That's the way he made us. Sorry that I think for myself, not necessarily as the rest of the world thinks I should.

If you think for yourself then answer me this. What is more likely, the entire natural order of things was suspended or that a Jewish maiden told a lie to her husband?

You already know my answer to that question. Jesus was born to a virgin as was prophesied in the old testament. Let me ask you a couple questions. Was the universe created or has it always existed or, at least, did something always exist? Also, is there any end to what exists and what is beyond that?