(May 18, 2014 at 12:39 pm)Lek Wrote: You already know my answer to that question. Jesus was born to a virgin as was prophesied in the old testament. Let me ask you a couple questions. Was the universe created or has it always existed or, at least, did something always exist? Also, is there any end to what exists and what is beyond that?

Where does it say that? I only know of the star prophecy, which happens to come from one of the most disgusting books of the Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy

(May 18, 2014 at 5:05 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Here is where I'm going to be honest with you. Science has little to do With my position on gods, bryond Some basic facts and the scientific method. Now I have a proposal, let's same for the sake of argument that we both there are God(s) and that they created the universe. How could you demonstrate to me that it was your God, the God described in the Bible and not Brahma, and the other gods described in the Vedas and many texts holy texts of the Hindu's?

I would point out the superiority of the bible, written over 1,500 years, by many different human authors, leading up to Jesus and the fulfilled prophecies therein and so on. I believe if you open up to God he will lead you to Jesus. When it comes down to it you have to make your own decision based on faith. There's no scientific method for deciding whether or not to believe in God.

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(May 18, 2014 at 8:45 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: Where does it say that? I only know of the star prophecy, which happens to come from one of the most disgusting books of the Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy

Isaiah 7:14

(May 18, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 18, 2014 at 5:05 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Here is where I'm going to be honest with you. Science has little to do With my position on gods, bryond Some basic facts and the scientific method. Now I have a proposal, let's same for the sake of argument that we both there are God(s) and that they created the universe. How could you demonstrate to me that it was your God, the God described in the Bible and not Brahma, and the other gods described in the Vedas and many texts holy texts of the Hindu's?

I would point out the superiority of the bible, written over 1,500 years, by many different human authors, leading up to Jesus and the fulfilled prophecies therein and so on. I believe if you open up to God he will lead you to Jesus. When it comes down to it you have to make your own decision based on faith. There's no scientific method for deciding whether or not to believe in God.

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(May 18, 2014 at 8:45 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: Where does it say that? I only know of the star prophecy, which happens to come from one of the most disgusting books of the Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy

Isaiah 7:14

The vatican authenticated a 1,500 year old bible. It said that Barnabas said paul was a liar, also said Jesus never claimed to be the son of god, nor did he ever die on a cross. So about that book again?

(May 18, 2014 at 5:05 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Here is where I'm going to be honest with you. Science has little to do With my position on gods, bryond Some basic facts and the scientific method. Now I have a proposal, let's same for the sake of argument that we both there are God(s) and that they created the universe. How could you demonstrate to me that it was your God, the God described in the Bible and not Brahma, and the other gods described in the Vedas and many texts holy texts of the Hindu's?

lek Wrote:I would point out the superiority of the bible, written over 1,500 years

Your wrong there, the oldest text ascribed we have is dated to between 975-1000 BC. It is also in a language that is older then biblical, and for that reason it has been very difficult to decipher. Infact the three words that are cited in the article are all root words found in archaic biblical Hebrew.
Infact here I will link a paper that very neatly explains the current view among bible scholars on the authorship of the bible
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/doc-hyp.pdf
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...ext_2.html
Now we know compilation of the veda was also done by many authors and started in mid 2nd BC and was completed completed between 1500-1000 BC

Quote:, by many different human authors, leading up to Jesus and the fulfilled prophecies therein and so on.

If the bible's prophecies were all fulfilled then explain this

rationalwiki Wrote:Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]

In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists

Quote: I believe if you open up to God he will lead you to Jesus.

Evidence comes before belief, and a all-loving omnipotent would understand this.
Hell here I'd like to quote thomas jefferson because he put it a lot better then I can

Thomas Jefferso Wrote:Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes...ElVHsbI.99

Quote: When it comes down to it you have to make your own decision based on faith.
There's no scientific method for deciding whether or not to believe in God.

First to clear up any ambiguity lets see how the bible defines faith

hebrews 11:1 Wrote:New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Now for context the book of hebrews is paul addressing the jews regarding jesus and matters of faith.
Given that definition as defined by the second most important figure in Christianity, you can use faith justify any believe you want to hold. That includes any religious inclination be it hindu, pagan, scientology, or even that wretched mess called islam. Man of these people will also claim a relationship with said deity, and you can't do a damn thing to prove their wrong and your right because you accept your religion on the exact same criteria. Furthermore most of these religions are demonstrably false in much the same way your personal favorite is. To boot not a single one of them has met any reasonable burden of proof. That said again the hindu's came a lot closer with the milk drinking miracles then christianity ever has.



This one has any christian miracle beat as it actually happened, and was covered by credible news networks. I

(May 18, 2014 at 10:48 pm)BlackSwordsman Wrote: The vatican authenticated a 1,500 year old bible. It said that Barnabas said paul was a liar, also said Jesus never claimed to be the son of god, nor did he ever die on a cross. So about that book again?

It wasn't a bible. It was called the "Gospel of Barnabas" and obviously was written by somebody who didn't agree with the gospel writers of the bible. The bible is a collection of 66 books which are accepted by orthodox christianity as being the inspired word of God.

(May 18, 2014 at 4:16 pm)Lek Wrote: You believe the universe always existed in one state or another - like God. You have no scientific proof, but yet you believe and others just leave it open.

I think it's pretty crazy that Lemongrab twice said "I don't know for sure" or something similar, before he said the rest of the sentence, and only pressed the case as strongly as "the multiverse is a possibility," and you still got "I believe that there's a multiverse, completely," out of that.

That's some pretty extreme editorializing there, Lek.

(May 18, 2014 at 11:50 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(May 18, 2014 at 4:16 pm)Lek Wrote: You believe the universe always existed in one state or another - like God. You have no scientific proof, but yet you believe and others just leave it open.

I think it's pretty crazy that Lemongrab twice said "I don't know for sure" or something similar, before he said the rest of the sentence, and only pressed the case as strongly as "the multiverse is a possibility," and you still got "I believe that there's a multiverse, completely," out of that.

That's some pretty extreme editorializing there, Lek.

He isn't editorializing, he is projecting. He seems prone to this.

(May 18, 2014 at 11:46 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 18, 2014 at 10:48 pm)BlackSwordsman Wrote: The vatican authenticated a 1,500 year old bible. It said that Barnabas said paul was a liar, also said Jesus never claimed to be the son of god, nor did he ever die on a cross. So about that book again?

It wasn't a bible. It was called the "Gospel of Barnabas" and obviously was written by somebody who didn't agree with the gospel writers of the bible. The bible is a collection of 66 books which are accepted by orthodox christianity as being the inspired word of God.

It seems to me that there's quite a lot of disagreements within the Gospels.

catholiccourier.com Wrote:

RE: Why-do-the-gospels-seem-to-disagree?

Q. In reading the Bible, I'm surprised how much books disagree, especially the Gospels. They have different ancestors of Jesus and even different words for Jesus spoken at the Last Supper. How can this be if the Gospels are supposed to give us a true life of our Lord? (California)

A. I often receive questions similar to yours. Is it perhaps one aspect of the feeling many Catholics and other Christians have that religious matters should be black and white, without ambiguity? Any evidence that this is not always so is met with disbelief or, as in your case, confusion.

What did Jesus really say at the Last Supper? The quoted words of our Lord in the institution of the Eucharist are different in all three synoptic Gospels, and all differ as well from the eucharistic institution formula we use at Mass. John does not refer to the Eucharist at all in his narrative of the Last Supper, at least in this direct way. These differing readings probably reflected variations in the liturgy from one place to another in those days. Whatever the reasons, each Gospel writer added, changed or subtracted ideas he thought necessary to express what he wanted to say about Jesus. The 1964 Pontifical Biblical Commission Instruction on the biblical truth of the Gospels reflects the nearly universal position of major scholars today. From the many things handed down to them, said the commission, the Gospel writers "selected some things, reduced others to a synthesis" and explained yet others "as they kept in mind the (different) situation(s) of the churches. ... - See more at: http://www.catholiccourier.com/commentar...HWYQC.dpuf

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Lek, additionally: Virgin births aren't that rare in religious texts. Why is the Christian Virgin Mother taken any more seriously than any of the other, more older ones?

Virgin birth in Buddhism. In Buddhism the virgin birth concept occupies a central place and the suggestion of immaculate conception is also made. Buddha's future mother, Mahamaya, refrained form sexual activity and other worldly pleasures during the mid-summer festival and was taken off during a dream to the Himalayas. There she was purified by water to remove every human stain before being placed upon a divine couch. Nearby, the future Buddha had become a superb white elephant, and three times he walked round his mother's couch, with his right side towards it, and striking on her right side, he seemed to enter her womb. After the conception, no lustful thought sprang up in the mind of future Buddha's mother. Buddha was carried for ten months in Mahamaya's womb and was delivered as she stood in the sacred Lumbini Grove.13

Virgin birth in Hinduism. In Hinduism, the birth of Krishna is attributed as virgin birth. The myth of Krishna elaborates how the divine Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and was born as her son Krishna. In this, the deity is not only the effective agent in conception, but also the off-spring.15
In the Hindu epic 'Mahabharata,' Karna is miraculously conceived and born of the virgin Kunti. Karna's father is the sun god Surya, the light of the Universe, who restores Kunti's maidenhood after the act of conception. Karna is born wearing armour and ear- rings. Like so many other virgin mothers, Kunti hides her child from her family for fear of scandal. The child is placed, like Moses, in a basket in the river and subsequently he is rescued and reared by people of a lower station in life.

Virgin birth in Zoroastrianism. According to Zoroastrianism, the glory of Ahura Mazda (the supreme deity) united itself with Zoroaster's future mother at her birth and rendered her fit thereby to bear the prophet. At the same time a divinely protected stem of a haoma21 plant was infused with the fravashi22 of the coming prophet. At the proper time the parents of Zoroaster drank its juices mixed with a potent milk and it contained the material essence of the child about to be conceived. This leads up to his actual physical generation. But his virgin birth assertion is hardly supported by the accounts in the sacred books.23

The doctrine of the virgin birth was well known in Egypt in connection with the goddess Neith of Sais, centuries before the birth of Christ.25
It is of interest to note that in Egyptian birth stories, the agent of conception is God's breath. At its profound level, the virgin birth story is the story of re-creation in which the virgin as the centre of creation receives the divine breath or spirit of the divine in order that a new sacred creation in microcosm might take place

The legend of Perseus stated that his mother conceived him by Jupiter when he visited her in a golden shower. Stories of the generation of gods and goddesses by other gods and goddesses as in the case of the birth of Apollo by Zeus and Semele, legends of the birth of gods by generation of a god with a mortal woman as in the case of the birth of Hercules by the union of Zeus and Alomena, tales of the birth of the heroes through the union of a god with a mortal as in the birth of Ion by Apollo and Creusa, and stories of the birth of emperors as in the legend of Augustus' generation by a serpent- god and Atia, have been regarded as virgin birth by Greco-Roman and Hellenistic traditions.

(May 18, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]

In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists

You need to read the whole chapter pertaining to the destruction of Tyre. In Ezekiel 26:3-6 it says "3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord." He didn't say Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre. Notice how the the pronouns change from the singular "he" to the plural "they" in the latter part of your quote. Alexander the Great fulfilled the prophecy of destruction in 332 BC. Saying that Tyre was rebuilt is like leveling New York City, rebuilding Manhattan, and saying that New York City was rebuilt or still existed.

Didn't quite make it to verse 7 huh lek?

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Plus after that whole destruction of Christianity I posted, that's the best you have? Because I can quote a lot more failed prophecies