(June 3, 2014 at 10:00 am)pocaracas Wrote: So, our best available "evidence" of this effect seems to happen to people who suffer from Alzheimer's, but this disease attacks mostly the brain areas dedicated to memory, not so much for the actual functioning of consciousness.... so we don't really have much evidence of what you're asking.
We can conjecture, based on what we see happening to Alzheimer's patients.... and that is a slow decline in memories, never quite reaching zero memory, before the patient suffers some terminal malady, often from the failure of some autonomous system that also gets affected by the disease.

Alzheimer's is a good example because it affects memory, thinking, and behavior.

(June 3, 2014 at 12:31 pm)Chas Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 10:00 am)pocaracas Wrote: So, our best available "evidence" of this effect seems to happen to people who suffer from Alzheimer's, but this disease attacks mostly the brain areas dedicated to memory, not so much for the actual functioning of consciousness.... so we don't really have much evidence of what you're asking.
We can conjecture, based on what we see happening to Alzheimer's patients.... and that is a slow decline in memories, never quite reaching zero memory, before the patient suffers some terminal malady, often from the failure of some autonomous system that also gets affected by the disease.

Alzheimer's is a good example because it affects memory, thinking, and behavior.

Really?
I thought it only affected memory...

(June 3, 2014 at 4:52 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 12:31 pm)Chas Wrote: Alzheimer's is a good example because it affects memory, thinking, and behavior.

Really?
I thought it only affected memory...

It can cause confused thinking and aggressive behavior.

(June 3, 2014 at 6:10 pm)Chas Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 4:52 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Really?
I thought it only affected memory...

It can cause confused thinking and aggressive behavior.

Yes, but isn't that because of the lack of memory?
I seriously know very little about this condition, so feel free to lecture me! (and I don't have a lot of time right now to wiki it)

(June 3, 2014 at 12:31 pm)Chas Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 10:00 am)pocaracas Wrote: So, our best available "evidence" of this effect seems to happen to people who suffer from Alzheimer's, but this disease attacks mostly the brain areas dedicated to memory, not so much for the actual functioning of consciousness.... so we don't really have much evidence of what you're asking.
We can conjecture, based on what we see happening to Alzheimer's patients.... and that is a slow decline in memories, never quite reaching zero memory, before the patient suffers some terminal malady, often from the failure of some autonomous system that also gets affected by the disease.

Alzheimer's is a good example because it affects memory, thinking, and behavior.

And explains why BennyBoy is incapable of absorbing new information.

(June 3, 2014 at 6:19 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 12:31 pm)Chas Wrote: Alzheimer's is a good example because it affects memory, thinking, and behavior.

And explains why BennyBoy is incapable of absorbing new information.

Wow, you've managed to unnecessarily troll me and also so insult the millions of people suffering from a horrible degenerative disease by identifying their disease as an insult. Well done.

Do you have any actual ideas about the nature of consciousness to discuss, or has this thread officially moved into the 12-teen "pwned you" phase?

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(June 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(June 2, 2014 at 9:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I would say they are neither necessary nor sufficient to explain consciousness.

Yes. You've been saying that since the day you got here. You're incredulous that a brain can give rise to mind. Regardless, the evidence is that qualia are the result of brain activity.

Have I at any point showed incredulity that brains can give rise to mind? I don't think so.

I've argued that it is not known whether the specific properties of the brain that can give rise to mind are local only to brains (e.g. the function of neuronal systems) or are more general (e.g. associated on primitive levels with ALL exchanges of information).

Nor have I ever denied that specific brain regions create parts of our qualitative experience. We are not talking about the nature of universal consciousness, if there is such a thing, but whether it can be said to exist. I would argue that a God-like universal consciousness cannot exit, but that a more nebulous could be intrinsic to the properties of all matter.

(June 3, 2014 at 6:15 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 6:10 pm)Chas Wrote: It can cause confused thinking and aggressive behavior.

Yes, but isn't that because of the lack of memory?
I seriously know very little about this condition, so feel free to lecture me! (and I don't have a lot of time right now to wiki it)

No, memory loss (aphasia) is only one symptom; it is also a symptom of other types of dementia.

NIH Wrote:Alzheimer’s disease is an irreversible, progressive brain disease that slowly destroys memory and thinking skills, and eventually even the ability to carry out the simplest tasks. In most people with Alzheimer’s, symptoms first appear after age 60. Estimates vary, but experts suggest that as many as 5.1 million Americans may have Alzheimer’s disease.

Alzheimer’s disease is the most common cause of dementia among older people. Dementia is the loss of cognitive functioning—thinking, remembering, and reasoning—and behavioral abilities, to such an extent that it interferes with a person’s daily life and activities. Dementia ranges in severity from the mildest stage, when it is just beginning to affect a person’s functioning, to the most severe stage, when the person must depend completely on others for basic activities of daily living.

Yes. I believe the universe is alive and conscious, as we are part of it and we are conscious like the brain is the only conscious part of you, but you are more than just a brain (though this is debatable.)
This isn't new-agey BS, this is my interpretation of the way physics works. If one thinking thing is out there, part of the Universe thinks and therefor the whole Universe has thoughts and is therefor alive.
As the great and powerful Carl Sagan put it: "We are the universe contemplating itself."
We ARE (part of) the Universe, and we are observing it and thinking about it (heh- the universe is thinking about philosophy)

(June 3, 2014 at 7:03 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 12:12 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Yes. You've been saying that since the day you got here. You're incredulous that a brain can give rise to mind. Regardless, the evidence is that qualia are the result of brain activity.

Have I at any point showed incredulity that brains can give rise to mind? I don't think so.

(May 28, 2013 at 5:33 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Why is there subjective awareness, in a universe which is supposedly composed only of physical interactions? Why shouldn't even human beings be able to take in data, process it, and output a behavior, without ever actually experiencing this process?

(June 4, 2014 at 3:43 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 7:03 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Have I at any point showed incredulity that brains can give rise to mind? I don't think so.

(May 28, 2013 at 5:33 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Why is there subjective awareness, in a universe which is supposedly composed only of physical interactions? Why shouldn't even human beings be able to take in data, process it, and output a behavior, without ever actually experiencing this process?

I see.

You are quoting something from an earlier context. The past couple pages, I've been operating with it given that brains make minds, i.e. I'm looking at the OP through the perspective of physical monism. Here's a summary of the progression:

1) (original) It is not knowable whether any physical system, including other people, has qualia, because the qualia aren't accessible, and because brain function (with or without actual experience of qualia) is sufficient to explain behaviors. Therefore, the science of mind is rooted in a philsophical assumption, not an observable reality.
2) (later) GIVEN THAT a person with a brain who seems to experience qualia really does (and doesn't just seem to), it is still not knowable whether the existence of some form of mind is local only to complex brain structure and function, or is generalizable to simpler physical exchanges of information (like a single photon from a distant star being absorbed by an atom, for example).
3) In discussion of brain parts, I'm trying to define how precisely we can narrow down the relationship of "the brain" (really a name for a lot of separate parts with different effects on experience) to the existence (not the content) of qualia. What minimal neural system would be sufficient for the existence of the most simple "mind" or experience?

If you want me to present a single thesis, I'll take my stand on this question, which seems to be unanswerable:

-How, non-arbitrarily, can we determine that a physical system has qualia?

Nobody has yet given even a plausible answer to this question. And until we answer it, there's really no good answer to the OP.