The problem with a list of pronouncements is that as soon as you run into something that isn't on the list, you're essentially bluescreened. Much better to have a system whereby we can ascertain every situation on its own merits. Teach a man to fish, in fact,

(June 9, 2014 at 6:48 am)Stimbo Wrote: The problem with a list of pronouncements is that as soon as you run into something that isn't on the list, you're essentially bluescreened. Much better to have a system whereby we can ascertain every situation on its own merits. Teach a man to fish, in fact,

More importantly, a list of pronouncements doesn't entail that all of those pronouncements actually belong on the list, just that the person making the list thinks that they do. What we've got here is a list of things "god" thinks are moral and immoral, but as people have been saying about presuppositionalism over the past few days, the certainty with which an idea is professed says nothing about the truth of the idea, just the conviction of the speaker.

To say "god has this book of stuff..." doesn't tell us anything about the accuracy of the list, that's still something that we'd need to assess for ourselves, which is something an authoritarian set of pronouncements doesn't allow you to do.

Excellent point.

(June 9, 2014 at 5:34 am)Esquilax Wrote: So... your response is just "you just do it!" And you can't see why this is a problem?

This is the problem with your religion: it makes you okay with answering "why?" questions with "what?" answers. It makes you alright with anything, so long as the correct space wizard commands it.

Stimbo said that the bible doesn't tell you how to keep from sinning. The quote I displayed shows us how. If we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. That's how we keep from living a life of sin - we live in the Spirit and are guided by him. I've been around here long that you all know that I don't just toss out bible verses.

(June 9, 2014 at 10:36 am)Lek Wrote: If we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. That's how we keep from living a life of sin - we live in the Spirit and are guided by him.

The spirit to which you are referring is nothing more than one's conscience informing him that it is wrong to harm others. For some illogical reason, silly theists love to assume that some supernatural force is at work, almost as though they are too uncomfortable believing that they alone are in control of themselves.

What makes it all even more ridiculous is the religious concept of sin. Anything the theist personally finds abhorrent seemingly and coincidentally is also abhorrent to a god that shows absolutely no signs of being interested in our lives but becomes humanly upset at our supposed transgressions. It seems a great deal of projection is taking place.

That seems to be the idea that sure, your life sucks and you're poorer than a bed bug. But just because you don't have a crumb to eat don't go robbing and stealing to improve your situation. If you do that you will tick off the mob and they will hang you from the nearest tree. So suffer silently and just imagine that you're on an extend period of fasting.

(June 9, 2014 at 6:35 am)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 8, 2014 at 11:39 pm)Lek Wrote: Galatians 5:16-26
New International Version (NIV)
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[a] you want.

So how do people walk by the Spirit? What are the instructions for achieving this?

If I wanted to contact my Higher Self, New Age style I can find the instructions on the internet. I often use Eckhart Tolle's method of being in the present because I find this exercise is useful for clearing my mind. I only had to read his book 'The Power Of Now' once to know what the technique is supposed to do and how to go about using this technique.

How far are we supposed to go in not gratifying the desires of the flesh?

Mortification In Roman Catholic History

Quote:The Roman Catholic Church has often held mortification of the flesh (literally, "putting the flesh to death"), as a worthy spiritual discipline.

While doing a bit of research for this I found something very interesting.

Excerpts from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers

Quote:"A hermit said, 'Take care to be silent. Empty your mind. Attend to your meditation in the fear of God, whether you are resting or at work. If you do this, you will not fear the attacks of the demons."

Here, again, we're told what to do but it's not very helpful when it comes to instructions for emptying the mind. If Christians want to do it they'll find some useful tips in Eckhart Tolle's book.

Or the Deepak Chopra random quote generator.

Quote:Tolle: The most powerful state for a human to be in is the state of embracing completely the reality of what is—Now. It is to say “Yes” to life, which is now and always now. There is a vast power in that “Yes,” that state of inner non-resistance to what is. *

Tolle: I feel now that I need to return to the pure stillness periodically. And then, when the teaching happens, just allow it to arise out of the stillness. So the teaching and stillness are very closely connected. The teaching arises out of the stillness. But when I’m alone, there’s only the stillness, and that is my favorite place. *

http://dontstepinthepoop.com/interview-w...hart-tolle

(June 9, 2014 at 7:55 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Or the Deepak Chopra random quote generator.

Quote:Tolle: The most powerful state for a human to be in is the state of embracing completely the reality of what is—Now. It is to say “Yes” to life, which is now and always now. There is a vast power in that “Yes,” that state of inner non-resistance to what is. *

Being in the state of Now and the pure stillness etc. is something that can be tested by using various techniques. I find Tolle's technique useful because it's a simple one which can be done anywhere and any when - I often practise it when doing housework. There's nothing mysterious about the result because it's just a subjective experience produced by the brain. I have to admit that I'm not very good at it. After a couple of seconds without thoughts and just the experience of existing and being here in the present moment I invariably end up thinking "Yay! I succeeded!" and the experience is lost.

I have no idea if the desert father hermit was telling people to do something similar to the Tolle technique because he didn't provide any instructions for doing it. Maybe the technique he used resulted in a different subjective experience which he interpreted as God because he believed in God.

(June 9, 2014 at 10:36 am)Lek Wrote: Stimbo said that the bible doesn't tell you how to keep from sinning. The quote I displayed shows us how. If we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. That's how we keep from living a life of sin - we live in the Spirit and are guided by him. I've been around here long that you all know that I don't just toss out bible verses.

I don't know about you, but I don't even know what "walk with the spirit" means, let alone how one would go about it. The answer you've provided isn't useful, because it isn't a readily identifiable action: the question is "how do I keep from sinning?" and the apparent answer you've settled for is "perform the action that stops you from sinning."

That's great, but what is that action and how does one perform it? What does it actually achieve and why would one do that? This is why I said earlier that providing "what" answers to "why" questions isn't helpful; there's no method or purpose or reason involved with "what" answers, and in the case of the bible the "what" itself is completely devoid of context.

There's a passage in the Old Testament that says that people should plaster all of the Laws all over the place. That way anything they did something they could check to see if it was forbidden. That was one way they could stop sinning.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law...06-07.html