(June 15, 2014 at 7:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Scientism

Not a made up word. An accurate description of an over dependence on empirical evidence. Exactly what esq said was the majority view of atheists and their reason to dismiss theism.

One can never be too dependent on empirical evidence. If we want to find out if God exists or not, the only reasonable way we can find out is through testable evidence. Whether that would be possible or not is another question.

The only context I can put 'an over-dependence on empirical evidence' into is a failing con-artist complaining about his inability to swindle potential marks.

(June 15, 2014 at 7:52 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: The only context I can put 'an over-dependence on empirical evidence' into is a failing con-artist complaining about his inability to swindle potential marks.

Or like a magician who's upset about the crowd knowing how his tricks are done.

(June 15, 2014 at 6:12 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Reading through this thread again esq, I've actually been addressing your question directly. You don't see it, but that's what has happened. You dismissed scientism as 'stupid'. It's a word. It describes accurately the over dependence on empiricism that you profess, and that you say 'most' atheists profess. If you want to engage here, please look up the term.

Oh, is that what you call it? Because, see, when I begin a conversation by asking a question- "what thing, other than evidence, would one use to justify belief in something, such that one could be said to overly rely upon evidence?"- and that's the first question that I asked, and one that I keep asking, and your only response is to keep telling me that what I believe is a minority view, I don't call that "addressing" anything directly. I call it dodging; you haven't answered the first question I asked, because Hobbit, in order for someone to be said to rely on something too much, there needs to be a second thing to rely on that's equally trustworthy. Until you provide that, your initial premise is shaky, and no amount of telling me how unpopular my view is will change that.

As for calling it a distraction... come on, it's a core element of the position you're espousing. If we're using evidence too much, what else would you have us do? You're telling us there's a problem with our position, and then refusing to correct us in such a way that we can evaluate whether you're correct or not.

Because if you are correct, I want to know, and I want to change what I believe to match. I don't understand why you're so unwilling to help me with that.

The Hobbit better hide in his hill. Esq is breathing dragon fire.

(June 16, 2014 at 12:24 am)Bad Writer Wrote: The Hobbit better hide in his hill. I think Esq is breathing dragon fire.

Reminded me of this;

So you think it's a proof that someone or something doesn't exit only because you don't think he is good..?!

The thing is.. you have to believe first to judge ! You can't evaluate something unless it exists.

So don't judge my religion or that religion .. or say that I don't believe on God cuz he's unfair and make no sense!

If you want me to say why I'm muslim and not sikhi.. I will! But I don't think that you care ..

You want to know (I guess) why we do believe on God! So here I am helping and thinking with you..

I know how you feel cuz I wonder why you don't believe on God too

so let's try to understand each other .. really! For this purpose. And let's not try to prove who is wrong ..

I know no matter how I tried to convince you .. you will not believe .. That can only be if you want to. And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

Let's just try to understand each other.. arguments are useless and won't lead us to anything.

I believe on God because...

First I was born in a muslim country.. I've seen faith and how it affects people's lives.. when I see other people I know how happy and settled we are.. cuz I can see how lost they are.

Then.. I really became faithful with the bottom of my heart when I started wondering and asking questions.. I started young .. I remember when I said to my mom.. who created us? Why are we so sure that we are right?!?

She said.. well you can always search and find out the truth. She told me that even the quran says investigate and revaluate your faith.. and she started telling me the story of Ibrahim in the quran:

surah(6) .. verse 75 - 79
{ And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]
So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."
And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."
And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah .
Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah ." }

That means that Ibrahim was thinking and wondering too.. and he investigated and search.. then he found God!

So that was the beginning of my journey .. and started reading what atheist say about Islam and God.. and I found answers for everything they said.. and they really make sense to me.. So my faith started to be stronger..

and after years and years of reading and searching.. asking questions ! I experienced things like talking to God as if I can see him.. and receiving the message .. every time .. in life!

If you want.. you can try.. just ask a question.. say God I don't believe on you .. it's your fault! you didn't make things clear to me.. Let me see something clear and obvious!! If you are there .. tell me!

Just try it!! won't hurt you..

I can feel God all the time.. when I'm sad and when I'm happy.. and when something bad happens to me.. I start thinking why ?! what do you want me to see?! and then I know the wisdom behind it..

I lost my babies twice.. I remember watching them die .. not moving.. no heart beats.. I cried so hard !!

But I started saying.. thank you God.. I know there is a wisdom behind that.. I know you love them more than I do.. and I know that you are merciful .. give me the strength and patience .. I'll learn from this experience and be a better person!

You know the death of someone dear .. the death of your child.. is so hard!! it either makes you strong or weak!!

and It made me.. strong and understanding.. and made me know and realize the real meaning of life.. life is not eternal.. we can die so soon.. before we know.

It made me realize that I should not worry about anything in this mortal life.. money.. luxury.. fame.. success .. I work hard to be better and make other people's life better.. and build and fix.. with a sincere heart and without being greedy and selfish.

This experience made me grow.. into a better person.

now you tell me what makes you an atheist and how did that affected your life and made you a better person?

remember we can always share ideas with a nice conversation.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

You may think this is admirable, but an unshakable faith only tells me that you are not open to correction in case you are wrong.

Think of it this way. If you are wrong, how can you tell you are wrong?

In answer to your question concerning what makes me an atheist and how atheism has affected my life, it's simply the fact that there are no observable/testable evidence for the existence of any God, and that the only evidence theists seem to have to offer are in the form of either philosophical arguments that really just amount to word play or subjective experiences that could easily be psychological/emotional experiences.

As to what I get out of being an atheist, it's mainly that I get to live my life the way I see fit without being unwarrantably restricted by certain dogma for which the evidence pointing to its validity is lacking.

I'm also a better person as an atheist than I was as a religious person. For one, I am much more empathetic/understanding towards others (especially homosexuals, transgendered, and women) than I was before. I also don't feel I have a reason to feel superior to anyone anymore. And I have become a much honest person than ever before. When I was religious, I was continually enabled by the fellow religious to be intellectually dishonest and not give heed to the validity of alternate ideas and truths no matter the evidence pointing to them. Nowadays, if you show me real evidence that contradicts what I currently believe on any topic, I am much more open to it and will accommodate my belief accordingly (if not immediately, then gradually and eventually in a relatively short period of time).

---

I forgot to add that I'm sorry you lost two babies. Must have been some painful experiences for you.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: So you think it's a proof that someone or something doesn't exit only because you don't think he is good..?!

No, but that's definitely a reason not to worship that thing if it does exist.

Quote:The thing is.. you have to believe first to judge ! You can't evaluate something unless it exists.

So, what's your favorite movie character? See where I'm going with this?

Quote:So don't judge my religion or that religion .. or say that I don't believe on God cuz he's unfair and make no sense!

The latter is a valid argument.

Quote:I know no matter how I tried to convince you .. you will not believe .. That can only be if you want to. And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

That's not true, though; you could convince most of us with good arguments. This "you won't believe no matter what I say," thing is just an excuse to feel okay about the fact that your reasons aren't good.

Quote:First I was born in a muslim country.. I've seen faith and how it affects people's lives.. when I see other people I know how happy and settled we are.. cuz I can see how lost they are.

So if you were born elsewhere you'd be a different religion? Other religions have just as much faith as yours.

Quote:now you tell me what makes you an atheist and how did that affected your life and made you a better person?

remember we can always share ideas with a nice conversation.

I'm an atheist because I don't see any evidence for a god, that's all. And I don't know that it made me a better person because I've never really been religious, but it has made me an intellectually honest one, and at the very least not a bad person.

(June 15, 2014 at 9:38 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Because if you are correct, I want to know, and I want to change what I believe to match. I don't understand why you're so unwilling to help me with that.

If that were true, you would stop showcasing and go look up the word and see that it explains why. I've linked it for you, you have no excuse.

I suspect though that you're far more interested in stroking your ego.