I was thinking more along the lines where person A describes his personal conversion experience and how he felt that god communicated with him in some way, and person B determines that it must have been a demon that person A dealt with, because god wouldn't have led anyone to that religion (or belief). In such a case, how do we determine who is right? It may not matter to those involved (although the degree to which people seek to convert one another would indicate otherwise most of the time) but to someone outside of it, there's insufficient basis on which to judge.

Unless we make up our own rules...

(June 17, 2014 at 12:11 pm)Tonus Wrote: Unless we make up our own rules...

And we all do. To me, atheism is a raw religion. It tears away everything and explores what's left. That's fantastic. And I guess why it interests me so much.

Some stuff is utter crap. Some stuff is awesome. All we can do is try our best to find out what's worthwhile

(June 17, 2014 at 6:45 am)Esquilax Wrote: That's just the way you work, isn't it? Evade, evade, evade, and then blame everyone else for not agreeing with you based on the barest of arguments that you've actually made. :dodgy:

Yep. See also: claiming something repeatedly, and then pages later claiming he "proved the claim" and "doesn't need to do it again."

(June 17, 2014 at 6:27 am)Irrational Wrote: Seen and read a lot of Islamic material, especially the stuff related to purported scientific miracles in the Qur'an. Wasn't impressed to be honest.

that's fine you have a free mind and choice!

unless that means that you need me to give you some advice on what to watch?!

(June 9, 2014 at 9:23 am)Severan Wrote: Here's a question for every theist and creationist out there.

What evidence or arguments do you have for a god?

As far as I've seen, we've been able to refute nearly all the arguments and rationalize all of the evidence you have. Do you have any legitimate support for the 'god' you claim?

The reason I'm asking for this proof is that the burden of proof always lies on the person making the claim.

It's obvious that theists have made the claim that there is a 'god' or some higher power. There are hundreds of religions. Each one is a claim to be the true belief. Religion is claiming a deity.

Yet despite this, theists fight tooth and nail to shift the burden of proof to atheists. We are just skeptics. Until any religion provides evidence for a claim, we must assume that god does not exist.

So, really. Don't give me 'bible verses' or already refuted arguments and call it evidence. Give me some real evidence that your god exists. If you can't find any, that's because it really doesn't.

can't argue with you. You have all the answers. I have found it fruitless to argue with 9th graders anyway
.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: So you think it's a proof that someone or something doesn't exit only because you don't think he is good..?!

The thing is.. you have to believe first to judge ! You can't evaluate something unless it exists.

So don't judge my religion or that religion .. or say that I don't believe on God cuz he's unfair and make no sense!

? Not sure what or who you're responding to here.

Quote:If you want me to say why I'm muslim and not sikhi.. I will! But I don't think that you care ..

I suspect you didn't actually make a choice, rather you simply copied those around you. which you've more or less confirmed.

Quote:I know how you feel cuz I wonder why you don't believe on God too

so let's try to understand each other .. really! For this purpose. And let's not try to prove who is wrong ..

I know no matter how I tried to convince you .. you will not believe .. That can only be if you want to. And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

Let's just try to understand each other.. arguments are useless and won't lead us to anything.

I believe on God because...

First I was born in a muslim country.. I've seen faith and how it affects people's lives.. when I see other people I know how happy and settled we are.. cuz I can see how lost they are.

Then.. I really became faithful with the bottom of my heart when I started wondering and asking questions.. I started young .. I remember when I said to my mom.. who created us? Why are we so sure that we are right?!?

She said.. well you can always search and find out the truth. She told me that even the quran says investigate and revaluate your faith.. and she started telling me the story of Ibrahim in the quran:

So that was the beginning of my journey .. and started reading what atheist say about Islam and God.. and I found answers for everything they said.. and they really make sense to me.. So my faith started to be stronger..

and after years and years of reading and searching.. asking questions ! I experienced things like talking to God as if I can see him.. and receiving the message .. every time .. in life!

If you want.. you can try.. just ask a question.. say God I don't believe on you .. it's your fault! you didn't make things clear to me.. Let me see something clear and obvious!! If you are there .. tell me!

Just try it!! won't hurt you..

I lost my babies twice.. I remember watching them die .. not moving.. no heart beats.. I cried so hard !!

But I started saying.. thank you God.. I know there is a wisdom behind that.. I know you love them more than I do.. and I know that you are merciful .. give me the strength and patience .. I'll learn from this experience and be a better person!

You know the death of someone dear .. the death of your child.. is so hard!! it either makes you strong or weak!!

and It made me.. strong and understanding.. and made me know and realize the real meaning of life.. life is not eternal.. we can die so soon.. before we know.

It made me realize that I should not worry about anything in this mortal life.. money.. luxury.. fame.. success .. I work hard to be better and make other people's life better.. and build and fix.. with a sincere heart and without being greedy and selfish.

This experience made me grow.. into a better person.

now you tell me what makes you an atheist and how did that affected your life and made you a better person?

remember we can always share ideas with a nice conversation.

So you experience some sort of feeling which you identify as "god". I have never had any such feeling and in my mid thirties I rather doubt I ever will. I heard similar things as a child, however these promises have always turned out to be hollow and empty.
Being an athiest has taught me the value of self-reliance, of listening first, and of not jumping to conclusions, to name but a few.

(June 17, 2014 at 5:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: Rationalism is a tool that empiricism relies on anyway. They are not rival philosophies or opposites. You think inferences based on observation are not rationalistic in nature as well?

Empiricism can inform rationalism, sure. I said so above. Rationalism requires you to depart from empiricism alone, because if it were empirically proven, then nothing more is needed.

But what atheists seen to be saying to me, is that empiricism is everything and nothing else rates as useful. This denied rationalism, which is the sphere of religion.

(June 17, 2014 at 7:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 5:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: Rationalism is a tool that empiricism relies on anyway. They are not rival philosophies or opposites. You think inferences based on observation are not rationalistic in nature as well?

Empiricism can inform rationalism, sure. I said so above. Rationalism requires you to depart from empiricism alone, because if it were empirically proven, then nothing more is needed.

But what atheists seen to be saying to me, is that empiricism is everything and nothing else rates as useful. This denied rationalism, which is the sphere of religion.

I think what atheist posters here are disputing is the last statement you just made. In general, religion does not rely on reason but on emotions and desire to believe that something greater than us exists out there.

And empiricism and rationalism go well together (as you just agreed), and such a synthesis has effectively been shown to work in terms of deriving general demonstrable knowledge. What has religion ever done to help gain demonstrable knowledge?