A Serious Question For Theists

[Tonus]

I was thinking more along the lines where person A describes his personal conversion experience and how he felt that god communicated with him in some way, and person B determines that it must have been a demon that person A dealt with, because god wouldn't have led anyone to that religion (or belief). In such a case, how do we determine who is right? It may not matter to those involved (although the degree to which people seek to convert one another would indicate otherwise most of the time) but to someone outside of it, there's insufficient basis on which to judge.

Unless we make up our own rules...

[Confused Ape]

cuz Islam is more detailed and defined .. Islam has more knowledge.

cuz the Holly Quran is the only book which people claim that it is the exact words of God

People claiming the Quran is the exact words of God isn't what I regard as proof that God actually exists, though.

while sikhi books are written by their scholars.

Real Sikhism - Who is God? What does God look like?

God loves everyone. Sikhs believe there is no one superior to God. Furthermore, Sikhs believe that God created all beings, animals, birds, creatures, including humans. When the first great Guru, the founder of Sikh faith, Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave this definition to the people who believed differently in God, they were surprised and they asked him, who told you this and how did God come in existence? The great Guru explained that God Himself gave him this information. God has always been present. The concept of time is very worldly. There is no time, beginning or end when it comes to God. This is very hard to understand for us humans because we are used to the concept of begin and end with time.

This doesn't prove to me that God really did give him the information, of course.

You can read it if you want..

The nobel Quran

I got as far as 2:6 and 2:7 before hitting a brick wall.

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

Why should people be punished if Allah has arranged for them not to believe? I prefer the Sikh world view because they believe in a system which is fair and just for all.

cuz Quran is not only a book of instructions and guidance.. It has the knowledge of the past, present, and future.

What does it say about the present and the future?

To me I find this lecture so helping in understanding the Quran.. this man is really clever!

Although he was a previous atheist.. I personally have learned a lot from this lecture.. and even if you don't want to be a muslim I can ensure you that you will like this man and his clever ideas and way of thinking

I'm sorry but I couldn't sit through 2 1/2 hours of it. I've got arthritis in my neck so can only manage to be at the computer for around 20 minutes at a time. The sound quality wasn't good enough for me to hear what he was saying while I was lying down.

It's not only dreams.. you can't really ignore the big sensation of the existence of something "offstage" as you described it

I'm only aware of the 'offstage existence' of my unconscious mind, though. As yet, I've found no proof of anything beyond that.

I myself have experienced the existence of the "Jinn" as we call it.. spirits.

I felt him moving my legs and arms .. It was an awful experience!! I know many people would find that hard to believe.. but to me it's as clear as the water I mean I felt him really ..

Where were you when that happened? I'm interested in hearing more details of this experience if you don't mind providing them.

To me I just can't ignore this "fact", as I see it.. If you didn't experience anything like that before than its fine.. but knowing that and ignoring is lying to myself and I can't lie to myself

I believe you when you say you experienced something. I've sometimes had the feeling of a disembodied presence behind me and once saw a shadowy figure of a female form rising from a moorland pond in Wales. They were subjective experiences, though, because the people I was with didn't feel or see anything.

If you have a hard disk.. full of files and folders.. would say that the hard disk invented or created them by itself?! No of course

So where do all our thoughts come from? They can't come from God because we don't all think the same things, especially where God is concerned.

That's why I think the idea of a God was not created by the creative humans!!

I'm going to Hindu philosophy here - Brahman The Supreme Universal Lord Of All

Brahman is the indescribable, inexhaustible, omniscient, omnipresent, original, first, eternal and absolute principle who is without a beginning, without an end , who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe.

He is the incomprehensible, unapproachable radiant being whom the ordinary senses and ordinary intellect cannot fathom grasp or able to describe even with partial success. He is the mysterious Being totally out of the reach of all sensory activity, rationale effort and mere intellectual, decorative and pompous endeavor.

The Upanishads describe Him as the One and indivisible, eternal universal self, who is present in all and in whom all are present.

Now to Sufism.

Only by the light of the Spiritual Path and the mystic way can the Truth be discovered. In order for one to truly witness the Perfection of the Absolute, one must see with one's inner being, which perceives the whole of Reality. This witnessing happens when one becomes perfect, losing one's (partial) existence in the Whole. If the Whole is likened to the Ocean, and the part to a drop, the sufi says that witnessing the Ocean with the eye of a drop is impossible. However, when the drop becomes one with the Ocean, it sees the Ocean with the eye of the Ocean.

My guess is that both of these quotes are talking about the 'mystics' experience' which they interpret as God. God being beyond the human intellect hasn't stopped humans from deciding that they know exactly what God wants down to fine details such as rituals we should perform and what we should wear, though.

Or they may say God is two , three, thousands.. but that doesn't mean that God is multiple !

Maybe it depends on what is meant here - Hinduism And The Belief In One God

He exists in all and all beings exist in him. There is nothing other than Him, and there is nothing that is outside of Him. He is Imperishable, unknowable, immortal, infinite, without a beginning and without an end. All the same when worshipped with intense devotion and unshakeable faith, He responds to the calls of His devotees and comes to their aid and rescue.

All the gods and goddess are His manifestations only.

Eeek! This post is getting very long so I'll have to pass on replying to some things you said.

I think its bad people only.. "personality types"

an extremist would always be an extremists .. even if he was muslim, atheist, christian, scientist.. etc

I agree with you there. I've often wondered what would happen if I could go back to the time of the Spanish Inquisition and wave a wand to turn all the inquisitors, priests and the Pope into atheists. My guess is that the inquisitors would become fanatical atheists who'd then torture believers to save them from 'the God delusion'.

Actually I'm pregnant with my third child now she will be my first.

wish me luck ..

I hope everything goes well for you.

and thank you for this great conversation.

I'm really enjoying it.

[fr0d0]

Unless we make up our own rules...

And we all do. To me, atheism is a raw religion. It tears away everything and explores what's left. That's fantastic. And I guess why it interests me so much.

Some stuff is utter crap. Some stuff is awesome. All we can do is try our best to find out what's worthwhile

[Rampant.A.I.]

That's just the way you work, isn't it? Evade, evade, evade, and then blame everyone else for not agreeing with you based on the barest of arguments that you've actually made. :dodgy:

Yep. See also: claiming something repeatedly, and then pages later claiming he "proved the claim" and "doesn't need to do it again."

[ska88]

Seen and read a lot of Islamic material, especially the stuff related to purported scientific miracles in the Qur'an. Wasn't impressed to be honest.

that's fine you have a free mind and choice!

unless that means that you need me to give you some advice on what to watch?!

[GrandizerII]

I don't agree at all that they're opposites.

From the strict philosophical standpoint, rationalism is the view that all or most truth is deductive and a priori, deriving logically from a set of axioms gained by intuition or inherent knowledge. However, the term is not very often used so strictly, so this form of rationalism is generally known in English-speaking philosophy as continental rationalism, as its original proponents, such as René Descartes, were largely situated in continental Europe.

The term is more commonly used to refer to a synthesis of continental rationalism with its former rival philosophy, empiricism. This looser rationalism holds that empirical observation is more useful than intuition for gaining one's starting axioms, but one can use deductive reasoning from these axioms just as well. The best embodiment of this way of gaining knowledge is the scientific method; hence, rationalists tend to give high regard to science, designating it as the primary or sole proper source of truth.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rationalism

I have no problem with that. I think that pretty much describes my own approach. That they are opposite seems to be the prominent view, taken from a quick Google. Perhaps they are talking about strict adherence to either, which I can understand.

Rationalism is a tool that empiricism relies on anyway. They are not rival philosophies or opposites. You think inferences based on observation are not rationalistic in nature as well?

---

Seen and read a lot of Islamic material, especially the stuff related to purported scientific miracles in the Qur'an. Wasn't impressed to be honest.

that's fine you have a free mind and choice!

unless that means that you need me to give you some advice on what to watch?!

Only if you have confidence that it will make me seriously consider the truth of Islam.

[archangle]

Here's a question for every theist and creationist out there.

What evidence or arguments do you have for a god?

As far as I've seen, we've been able to refute nearly all the arguments and rationalize all of the evidence you have. Do you have any legitimate support for the 'god' you claim?

The reason I'm asking for this proof is that the burden of proof always lies on the person making the claim.

It's obvious that theists have made the claim that there is a 'god' or some higher power. There are hundreds of religions. Each one is a claim to be the true belief. Religion is claiming a deity.

Yet despite this, theists fight tooth and nail to shift the burden of proof to atheists. We are just skeptics. Until any religion provides evidence for a claim, we must assume that god does not exist.

So, really. Don't give me 'bible verses' or already refuted arguments and call it evidence. Give me some real evidence that your god exists. If you can't find any, that's because it really doesn't.

can't argue with you. You have all the answers. I have found it fruitless to argue with 9th graders anyway
.

[Mr Greene]

So you think it's a proof that someone or something doesn't exit only because you don't think he is good..?!

The thing is.. you have to believe first to judge ! You can't evaluate something unless it exists.

So don't judge my religion or that religion .. or say that I don't believe on God cuz he's unfair and make no sense!

? Not sure what or who you're responding to here.

If you want me to say why I'm muslim and not sikhi.. I will! But I don't think that you care ..

I suspect you didn't actually make a choice, rather you simply copied those around you. which you've more or less confirmed.

I know how you feel cuz I wonder why you don't believe on God too

so let's try to understand each other .. really! For this purpose. And let's not try to prove who is wrong ..

I know no matter how I tried to convince you .. you will not believe .. That can only be if you want to. And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

Let's just try to understand each other.. arguments are useless and won't lead us to anything.

I believe on God because...

First I was born in a muslim country.. I've seen faith and how it affects people's lives.. when I see other people I know how happy and settled we are.. cuz I can see how lost they are.

Then.. I really became faithful with the bottom of my heart when I started wondering and asking questions.. I started young .. I remember when I said to my mom.. who created us? Why are we so sure that we are right?!?

She said.. well you can always search and find out the truth. She told me that even the quran says investigate and revaluate your faith.. and she started telling me the story of Ibrahim in the quran:

So that was the beginning of my journey .. and started reading what atheist say about Islam and God.. and I found answers for everything they said.. and they really make sense to me.. So my faith started to be stronger..

and after years and years of reading and searching.. asking questions ! I experienced things like talking to God as if I can see him.. and receiving the message .. every time .. in life!

If you want.. you can try.. just ask a question.. say God I don't believe on you .. it's your fault! you didn't make things clear to me.. Let me see something clear and obvious!! If you are there .. tell me!

Just try it!! won't hurt you..

I lost my babies twice.. I remember watching them die .. not moving.. no heart beats.. I cried so hard !!

But I started saying.. thank you God.. I know there is a wisdom behind that.. I know you love them more than I do.. and I know that you are merciful .. give me the strength and patience .. I'll learn from this experience and be a better person!

You know the death of someone dear .. the death of your child.. is so hard!! it either makes you strong or weak!!

and It made me.. strong and understanding.. and made me know and realize the real meaning of life.. life is not eternal.. we can die so soon.. before we know.

It made me realize that I should not worry about anything in this mortal life.. money.. luxury.. fame.. success .. I work hard to be better and make other people's life better.. and build and fix.. with a sincere heart and without being greedy and selfish.

This experience made me grow.. into a better person.

now you tell me what makes you an atheist and how did that affected your life and made you a better person?

remember we can always share ideas with a nice conversation.

So you experience some sort of feeling which you identify as "god". I have never had any such feeling and in my mid thirties I rather doubt I ever will. I heard similar things as a child, however these promises have always turned out to be hollow and empty.
Being an athiest has taught me the value of self-reliance, of listening first, and of not jumping to conclusions, to name but a few.

[fr0d0]

Rationalism is a tool that empiricism relies on anyway. They are not rival philosophies or opposites. You think inferences based on observation are not rationalistic in nature as well?

Empiricism can inform rationalism, sure. I said so above. Rationalism requires you to depart from empiricism alone, because if it were empirically proven, then nothing more is needed.

But what atheists seen to be saying to me, is that empiricism is everything and nothing else rates as useful. This denied rationalism, which is the sphere of religion.

[GrandizerII]

Rationalism is a tool that empiricism relies on anyway. They are not rival philosophies or opposites. You think inferences based on observation are not rationalistic in nature as well?

Empiricism can inform rationalism, sure. I said so above. Rationalism requires you to depart from empiricism alone, because if it were empirically proven, then nothing more is needed.

But what atheists seen to be saying to me, is that empiricism is everything and nothing else rates as useful. This denied rationalism, which is the sphere of religion.

I think what atheist posters here are disputing is the last statement you just made. In general, religion does not rely on reason but on emotions and desire to believe that something greater than us exists out there.

And empiricism and rationalism go well together (as you just agreed), and such a synthesis has effectively been shown to work in terms of deriving general demonstrable knowledge. What has religion ever done to help gain demonstrable knowledge?