and i know the bible to be true because the bible tells me its true.

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but the bible also says that your god is a vengeful, jealous god. seems so many christians forget that part when they say god is good/love/life/salvation/whatever.

(June 17, 2014 at 3:30 pm)alpha male Wrote: I'm saying that, from an atheist POV, If religion is evil, and religion was invented by men, then men are evil.

As opposed to ignorant, fearful of death, and (in some cases) power hungry? Yeah, must be evil.

"If religion is evil..."

it is. go on.

"and religion was invented by men,"

it was. go on.

"then men are evil."

we can be. you nailed it.

(June 17, 2014 at 3:32 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well I meant more from a Christian's point of view, like the reply example I gave in quotes in my OP. A Christian that openly and honestly states God determines right and wrong, even if their own moral sensibilities disagree, is surrendering their morality to their god.

And? Yes, I think that the omniscient creator of the universe knows better than I do. From a Christian POV it makes perfect sense to surrender to god's morality.

(June 17, 2014 at 6:32 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 3:32 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well I meant more from a Christian's point of view, like the reply example I gave in quotes in my OP. A Christian that openly and honestly states God determines right and wrong, even if their own moral sensibilities disagree, is surrendering their morality to their god.

And? Yes, I think that the omniscient creator of the universe knows better than I do. From a Christian POV it makes perfect sense to surrender to god's morality.

Exactly. That's why I find religious morals dangerous.

From the atheist side of the question I see people doing one of two very dangerous things:

1) Coming to their own moral conclusion. Supporting that conclusion by either personal revelation or by cherry picking scriptures. Then refusing to argue about whether it's moral or not because it's the word of god. The person using this method may honestly think they found their morality in scripture or through revelation, but given the way religious morality changes with the times (just a few decades behind secular morality) I think it is really just personal morality disguised as god's morality.

2) Following scripture literally, which as most of it was written in a time much more barbaric then present western civilization (and a lot like parts of the current middle east) and applying it to modern western civilization can lead to horrors, i.e. rape a virgin gain a wife, is barbaric.

Method one, often results in the same moral standards as secular society. But when it doesn't, the theist will not budge because god is on his side--or at least so he thinks. Homosexuality, abortion, birth control, and a number of other issues fit this catagory.

Method two leads to bad places because there is really shitty morality in the Old Testament and in various places in the New Testament. The morality of the Koran for humans interacting with humans, is if possible worse than the Bible.

Also much of the "morality" in the Bible has to do with worshiping god, rather than man's interactions with each other. For example, the first three of the ten commandments deal with honoring god. The Koran is similar in that much of its morality concerns the worship and honor owed to Allah. That's fine if the theist makes that a personal morality only, but not good if he tries to legislate the rest of us into fallowing it. It can and often has lead to religiously motivated warfare and terrorism.

similar to what i said, but far better polished.

well written.

(June 17, 2014 at 5:42 pm)laikashuman Wrote: and i know the bible to be true because the bible tells me its true.

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but the bible also says that your god is a vengeful, jealous god. seems so many christians forget that part when they say god is good/love/life/salvation/whatever.

Oh they don't forget.

Rather they overlook, or employ apologetics to make the contradiction disappear.
(Role out 'you're interpreting it wrong' or 'it's not meant to be literal' or 'you've ignored the wider context' and saan).

I've talked to plenty of Christians who will say it doesn't matter how much good I do in the world, even saving billions of people, but if I don't find Jesus, down to hell with me I go.

And they will still claim to be the moral ones as they teach this immoral practice to their children.

(June 17, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Exactly. That's why I find religious morals dangerous.

From the atheist side of the question I see people doing one of two very dangerous things:

1) Coming to their own moral conclusion. Supporting that conclusion by either personal revelation or by cherry picking scriptures. Then refusing to argue about whether it's moral or not because it's the word of god. The person using this method may honestly think they found their morality in scripture or through revelation, but given the way religious morality changes with the times (just a few decades behind secular morality) I think it is really just personal morality disguised as god's morality.

Note the bolded part - if this is the case, then religion isn't having a real impact.

Quote:2) Following scripture literally, which as most of it was written in a time much more barbaric then present western civilization (and a lot like parts of the current middle east) and applying it to modern western civilization can lead to horrors, i.e. rape a virgin gain a wife, is barbaric.

Where in the west can you rape a virgin to gain a wife?

Quote:Method one, often results in the same moral standards as secular society. But when it doesn't, the theist will not budge because god is on his side--or at least so he thinks. Homosexuality, abortion, birth control, and a number of other issues fit this catagory.

The fact that many Christians do accept these things shows that theists do budge on such matters.

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(June 18, 2014 at 3:13 am)Godslayer Wrote: I've talked to plenty of Christians who will say it doesn't matter how much good I do in the world, even saving billions of people, but if I don't find Jesus, down to hell with me I go.

That's the nature of law. You could find a cure for cancer and save millions of lives, but if you commit a murder, you'll still go to jail.

(June 19, 2014 at 10:22 am)alpha male Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Jenny A Wrote: (..) given the way religious morality changes with the times (just a few decades behind secular morality) I think it is really just personal morality disguised as god's morality.

Note the bolded part - if this is the case, then religion isn't having a real impact.

Only if we disregard the part in italics. And given the gist of her post, I'm guessing Jenny A does think it has an impact.