Sacrificing our Moral Compasses

[John V]

That doesn't follow from your premises.

Firstly, it may be that the men who invented religion were good men who had no idea that their idea would be perverted into a tool of control, corruption, and destruction.

In that case you've just moved the evil from the creators to the corrupters. The point remains that if there is no god, then evil in religion is just a reflection of evil in mankind.

Secondly, even if religion's creators did know that, the most you could infer is that some men are evil.

OK. I wasn't really going after a universal.

[fr0d0]

Well, thanks for not answering the question.

And no, if anyone told me to kill my son, I'd react similarly to Hitchens and say "Fuck you" to whoever told me.

So you don't trust your moral sense?

Interesting, thanks for answering.

No I wouldn't do it either. Would that be weakness or lack of conviction on my part? Probably. I can't imagine how I'd react in that situation.

How about you? How do you reconcile what you've just said given your original point?

The utter surrender of one’s own moral compass to the whims (as the above mentions) of a being is something that I find both disgusting and extremely dangerous.

Isn't selfishness in going against what is right disgusting? Is that how you think society should work?

[FatAndFaithless]

Well, thanks for not answering the question.

And no, if anyone told me to kill my son, I'd react similarly to Hitchens and say "Fuck you" to whoever told me.

So you don't trust your moral sense?

Interesting, thanks for answering.

No I wouldn't do it either. Would that be weakness or lack of conviction on my part? Probably. I can't imagine how I'd react in that situation.

How about you? How do you reconcile what you've just said given your original point?

The utter surrender of one’s own moral compass to the whims (as the above mentions) of a being is something that I find both disgusting and extremely dangerous.

Isn't selfishness in going against what is right disgusting? Is that how you think society should work?

What in the hell are you talking about? I wouldn't kill my son because I do trust my moral sense. You seem to have your immoral cart before the horse in your second question. What's disgusting is the fact that someone would give up their own morals to someone else (god), admitting that they couldn't tell right from wrong.

[fr0d0]

That was the question asked of you. Would you kill your son if your morals told you it was the right thing to do.

[FatAndFaithless]

That was the question asked of you. Would you kill your son if your morals told you it was the right thing to do.

What horribly phrased question. My question was if your God (who is apparently the absolute morality), told you to kill your child, would you do it? Would you defy God?

Your question is useless and devoid of substance. It's akin to asking "Would the Nazis kill the Jews if their morals told them to?" It's precisely that my morals tell me not to kill my son, that's the point. If your morals told you not to kill your son, and yet your God orders you to do it, would you do it?

It's a very simple question.

[fr0d0]

And my question puts the shoe on the other foot. Seems a simple enough question to me. Are you going to answer it?

Nazi Germany might be a good example. You are convinced by peer pressure that your Jewish son has to die. Morally you are convinced that this is the right thing to do. You have no doubt. Do you do it?

[The Grand Nudger]

I believe that the question that Frtodo might be posing is akin to an example in which -you- belong to one of many tribes throughout history (for example) that practice infanticide as a means of birth control (or really..for whatever reason). As a member of that group it's likely that your compass would tell you that killing an infant son, say, for the greater good of a small tribe with limited resources - was just and right. You may even feel compelled, no other option. Might, maybe, mayhaps. This going strictly by the reality of such practices throughout history.

Again, going by the behaviour of the vast majority of human beings on the planet, one generally does what ones "moral compass" compels one to do. Whatever direction that compass is pointing - and however they acquired it.

Is that the sort of question you're posing Frods?
(a somewhat empty question, if so - granted, as it's a "chocolate/vanilla sort of thing with no real comparison of what is -contained- within eithers "moral sense" or wtf kids are calling it these days.)

[FatAndFaithless]

I believe that the question that Frtodo might be posing is akin to an example in which -you- belong to one of many tribes throughout history (for example) that practice infanticide as a means of birth control (or really..for whatever reason). As a member of that group it's likely that your compass would tell you that killing an infant son, say, for the greater good of a small tribe with limited resources - was just and right. You may even feel compelled, no other option. Might, maybe, mayhaps. This going strictly by the reality of such practices throughout history.

Again, going by the behaviour of the vast majority of human beings on the planet, one generally does what ones "moral compass" compels one to do. Whatever direction that compass is pointing - and however they acquired it.

Is that the sort of question you're posing Frods?

I guess that MIGHT be a bit of a more intelligible question, but he's starting with the premise that I would already think it was a good thing.

"If your moral compass told you to"

I'm just asking where his moral compass points NOW, and asking if he would compromise that based on a God telling him to.

[fr0d0]

Yes rhythm thanks.

My moral compass tells me that killing my son is absolutely wrong faf. I would never do it.

Like the Nazi, if somehow I was convinced of the opposite, I'd surely do that.

[FatAndFaithless]

Yes rhythm thanks.

My moral compass tells me that killing my son is absolutely wrong faf. I would never do it.

Like the Nazi, if somehow I was convinced of the opposite, I'd surely do that.

Okay, good. We have a starting point. You think killing your son is wrong.

Now, if your God communicated with you in such a way that you could have no doubt that it was God, and told you to kill your son, would you do it?