(June 17, 2014 at 7:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Fuxxake, reality. Why don't you simply ask theists, 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' Sheesh.

Boru

No shit. This is about as brilliant as that one bloke's "Jesus is lord" vs "No, I want to burn in hell" poll.

About prayer:

(June 17, 2014 at 7:50 pm)pocaracas Wrote: About prayer:

Ah, but a cool breeze feels amazing on a hot summer day. Same with prayer, at least to believers. But to each their own.

(June 17, 2014 at 4:32 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: All depends on what you mean by 'help', reality.

I once gave a ragged homeless man all the money I had on me, because I felt really and truly sorry for him and his current circumstance.

The exhibition group at University I was with had just proceeded to stuff their fat faces full of rich food, steak pies, cakes, scones, pastry, you name it. It was a bitterly cold winter's day outside. Everyone walked past him for the train home. No one gave a shit about the man. It was starting to come to rain, making it even colder.

I gave so much, but I wouldn't have had to, because if everyone gave just a little I know he'd have been alright. I hoped he'd have somewhere warm to stay the night at least.

About a week later, I see him again, and he's drunk himself absolutely silly. Another week later and he's gone. I can't assume it ended well for him.

You can 'help' people, lend a hand, get some assistance, but what good is any of it when they can't help themselves? When they want to destroy themselves through drink and drug abuse?

I know a guy who happened to be a Christian who wouldn't give money for that reason. He'd take the person and buy them food, then he'd take them to a shelter... because through experience and understanding of people in that situation, he knew where money would go if given.

(June 17, 2014 at 7:58 pm)zanOTK Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 7:50 pm)pocaracas Wrote: About prayer:

Ah, but a cool breeze feels amazing on a hot summer day. Same with prayer, at least to believers. But to each their own.

Aye... but feeling good is not exactly guidance and those other things you said you pray for...
Although feeling good does help you to think better about any problem you may have and you are more likely to arrive at a positive outcome.
What bugs me is the attribution of that very internal chain of events to some external cause ... some external cause that doesn't seem to cause anything!

(June 17, 2014 at 8:18 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 7:58 pm)zanOTK Wrote: Ah, but a cool breeze feels amazing on a hot summer day. Same with prayer, at least to believers. But to each their own.

Aye... but feeling good is not exactly guidance and those other things you said you pray for...
Although feeling good does help you to think better about any problem you may have and you are more likely to arrive at a positive outcome.
What bugs me is the attribution of that very internal chain of events to some external cause ... some external cause that doesn't seem to cause anything!

Theists believe that it does.

Haha, I'm reminded of something that is DEFINETLEY not religious: Futurama. Hilarious show. Ever seen it? In one episode, Bender (robot) meets God who is actually a giant computer/something else that smashed together (I can't remember what it was the computer crashed into...). Anyway, God/The Computer said that if you do things right, it won't look like you did anything at all. This was in response to Bender's own experience "playing god" to a bunch of tiny little aliens that basically colonized his body while he was floating through space. When he helped them, they became too dependent on him and wouldn't do anything themselves. When he didn't help them they destroyed themselves in a tiny (from Bender's perspective) nuclear war.

Of course, that doesn't prove anything. It's a damn cartoon. But it did make me think. It kind of makes sense, in a way. I mean, I question all the time why God doesn't intervene more. But, if he did, wouldn't we become too reliant on Him? According to my own religion's beliefs, we are here in this world to learn and to develop spiritual attributes. How exactly are we going to learn or develop anything if He steps in whenever we're in trouble? We're not. If that's the case, then we're just not going to know it whenever our lives have been interfered with. There probably won't be any immediate changes. But over time, things will happen. Maybe. Lol.

The simple fact of the matter is, according to my religious beliefs God expects people to get the hell out there and DO something. In fact, service to mankind is considered to be a form of worship in the Baha'i Faith.

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 8:18 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Aye... but feeling good is not exactly guidance and those other things you said you pray for...
Although feeling good does help you to think better about any problem you may have and you are more likely to arrive at a positive outcome.
What bugs me is the attribution of that very internal chain of events to some external cause ... some external cause that doesn't seem to cause anything!

Theists believe that it does.

Indeed they do... but do they have good reason for such belief?
Or is it just "gut feeling" and indoctrination?

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote: Haha, I'm reminded of something that is DEFINETLEY not religious: Futurama. Hilarious show. Ever seen it? In one episode, Bender (robot) meets God who is actually a giant computer/something else that smashed together (I can't remember what it was the computer crashed into...). Anyway, God/The Computer said that if you do things right, it won't look like you did anything at all. This was in response to Bender's own experience "playing god" to a bunch of tiny little aliens that basically colonized his body while he was floating through space. When he helped them, they became too dependent on him and wouldn't do anything themselves. When he didn't help them they destroyed themselves in a tiny (from Bender's perspective) nuclear war.

Of course, that doesn't prove anything. It's a damn cartoon. But it did make me think. It kind of makes sense, in a way. I mean, I question all the time why God doesn't intervene more. But, if he did, wouldn't we become too reliant on Him? According to my own religion's beliefs, we are here in this world to learn and to develop spiritual attributes. How exactly are we going to learn or develop anything if He steps in whenever we're in trouble? We're not. If that's the case, then we're just not going to know it whenever our lives have been interfered with. There probably won't be any immediate changes. But over time, things will happen. Maybe. Lol.

yeah.... why are all claims about any of god's actions always in the past?
Maybe, they're just stories, huh? Like the other one I'm reminded of that starts off with "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... how can anyone refute that?!

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote: The simple fact of the matter is, according to my religious beliefs God expects people to get the hell out there and DO something. In fact, service to mankind is considered to be a form of worship in the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'i.... now there's a new religion for me!
Wiki gods, please help!!
Oh, look, they helped!

wiki Wrote:The Bahá'í Faith is a monotheistic religion emphasizing the spiritual unity of all humankind. Three core principles establish a basis for Bahá'í teachings and doctrine: the unity of God, that there is only one God who is the source of all creation; the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God; and the unity of humanity, that all humans have been created equal, and that diversity of race and culture are seen as worthy of appreciation and acceptance. According to the Bahá'í Faith's teachings, the human purpose is to learn to know and love God through such methods as prayer, reflection and being of service to humanity.

Sounds a lot like present-day catholics... But I guess there are some divergent details.

(June 18, 2014 at 5:03 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote: Theists believe that it does.

Indeed they do... but do they have good reason for such belief?
Or is it just "gut feeling" and indoctrination?

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote: Haha, I'm reminded of something that is DEFINETLEY not religious: Futurama. Hilarious show. Ever seen it? In one episode, Bender (robot) meets God who is actually a giant computer/something else that smashed together (I can't remember what it was the computer crashed into...). Anyway, God/The Computer said that if you do things right, it won't look like you did anything at all. This was in response to Bender's own experience "playing god" to a bunch of tiny little aliens that basically colonized his body while he was floating through space. When he helped them, they became too dependent on him and wouldn't do anything themselves. When he didn't help them they destroyed themselves in a tiny (from Bender's perspective) nuclear war.

Of course, that doesn't prove anything. It's a damn cartoon. But it did make me think. It kind of makes sense, in a way. I mean, I question all the time why God doesn't intervene more. But, if he did, wouldn't we become too reliant on Him? According to my own religion's beliefs, we are here in this world to learn and to develop spiritual attributes. How exactly are we going to learn or develop anything if He steps in whenever we're in trouble? We're not. If that's the case, then we're just not going to know it whenever our lives have been interfered with. There probably won't be any immediate changes. But over time, things will happen. Maybe. Lol.

yeah.... why are all claims about any of god's actions always in the past?
Maybe, they're just stories, huh? Like the other one I'm reminded of that starts off with "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... how can anyone refute that?!

(June 17, 2014 at 8:33 pm)zanOTK Wrote: The simple fact of the matter is, according to my religious beliefs God expects people to get the hell out there and DO something. In fact, service to mankind is considered to be a form of worship in the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'i.... now there's a new religion for me!
Wiki gods, please help!!
Oh, look, they helped!

wiki Wrote:The Bahá'í Faith is a monotheistic religion emphasizing the spiritual unity of all humankind. Three core principles establish a basis for Bahá'í teachings and doctrine: the unity of God, that there is only one God who is the source of all creation; the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God; and the unity of humanity, that all humans have been created equal, and that diversity of race and culture are seen as worthy of appreciation and acceptance. According to the Bahá'í Faith's teachings, the human purpose is to learn to know and love God through such methods as prayer, reflection and being of service to humanity.

Sounds a lot like present-day catholics... But I guess there are some divergent details.

It's not really a "gut feeling" for me, nor is it indoctrination. It's past experience. Which suck, because personal experience can't really be used as any kind of evidence. But I'm not trying to prove anything, so *shrug*.

As for claims about God's actions: Most of the "major" ones, Baha'is basically believe are myth. They are said to hold metaphorical truths, but are not literally true themselves. That doesn't mean we don't believe in miracles period, it just means we don't believe in MOST of them actually happening.

There are a LOT of "divergent details." Starting with: Catholicism came out of Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came out of Islam. Catholics today believe that the practitioners of other religions -maybe- have a chance of going to heaven due to the "mystery of Christ's sacrifice," Baha'is believe the practitioners of other religions have just as much of a chance as Baha'is do to achieve a good afterlife. Which leads to another: Baha'is don't believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe that these are metaphors for nearness to and distance from God. We also believe that you can continue to draw nearer to God after death (to Catholics that would basically be saying you can get to Heaven from Hell). Also, while Catholics have a powerful priesthood, Baha'is have no clergy. For spiritual matters, we are responsible for ourselves. For administration, we hold elections for the Local, Regional, National, and International administrative bodies. Baha'is also don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus resurrected after being crucified.

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote:

(June 18, 2014 at 5:03 am)pocaracas Wrote: Indeed they do... but do they have good reason for such belief?
Or is it just "gut feeling" and indoctrination?

yeah.... why are all claims about any of god's actions always in the past?
Maybe, they're just stories, huh? Like the other one I'm reminded of that starts off with "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... how can anyone refute that?!


Baha'i.... now there's a new religion for me!
Wiki gods, please help!!
Oh, look, they helped!


Sounds a lot like present-day catholics... But I guess there are some divergent details.

It's not really a "gut feeling" for me, nor is it indoctrination. It's past experience. Which suck, because personal experience can't really be used as any kind of evidence. But I'm not trying to prove anything, so *shrug*.

As for claims about God's actions: Most of the "major" ones, Baha'is basically believe are myth. They are said to hold metaphorical truths, but are not literally true themselves. That doesn't mean we don't believe in miracles period, it just means we don't believe in MOST of them actually happening.

There are a LOT of "divergent details." Starting with: Catholicism came out of Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came out of Islam. Catholics today believe that the practitioners of other religions -maybe- have a chance of going to heaven due to the "mystery of Christ's sacrifice," Baha'is believe the practitioners of other religions have just as much of a chance as Baha'is do to achieve a good afterlife. Which leads to another: Baha'is don't believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe that these are metaphors for nearness to and distance from God. We also believe that you can continue to draw nearer to God after death (to Catholics that would basically be saying you can get to Heaven from Hell). Also, while Catholics have a powerful priesthood, Baha'is have no clergy. For spiritual matters, we are responsible for ourselves. For administration, we hold elections for the Local, Regional, National, and International administrative bodies. Baha'is also don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus resurrected after being crucified.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of miracles do you believe happened? And then, does that fall into your 'gut feeling' area of belief, or do you have any evidence for those miracles?

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: It's not really a "gut feeling" for me, nor is it indoctrination. It's past experience. Which suck, because personal experience can't really be used as any kind of evidence. But I'm not trying to prove anything, so *shrug*.

Indeed, that sucks... but if it's good enough for you, then it's good enough for you.

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: As for claims about God's actions: Most of the "major" ones, Baha'is basically believe are myth. They are said to hold metaphorical truths, but are not literally true themselves. That doesn't mean we don't believe in miracles period, it just means we don't believe in MOST of them actually happening.

That sounds a bit like what the catholics nowadays go for, too...

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: There are a LOT of "divergent details." Starting with: Catholicism came out of Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came out of Islam.

And islam came out of what?

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: Catholics today believe that the practitioners of other religions -maybe- have a chance of going to heaven due to the "mystery of Christ's sacrifice," Baha'is believe the practitioners of other religions have just as much of a chance as Baha'is do to achieve a good afterlife.

Catholics are working towards that, it seems...
I remember a pope saying even atheists can get to heaven, now!!

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: Which leads to another: Baha'is don't believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe that these are metaphors for nearness to and distance from God.

There are a few christians around here who would say the same.

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: We also believe that you can continue to draw nearer to God after death (to Catholics that would basically be saying you can get to Heaven from Hell).

Ah... this is indeed different...

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: Also, while Catholics have a powerful priesthood, Baha'is have no clergy. For spiritual matters, we are responsible for ourselves. For administration, we hold elections for the Local, Regional, National, and International administrative bodies.

So, it's a theocracy?

(June 18, 2014 at 10:52 am)zanOTK Wrote: Baha'is also don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus resurrected after being crucified.

yes, well... that a very christian-only thing, yes...

details, details!