Question to Theists

[zanOTK]

It's not really a "gut feeling" for me, nor is it indoctrination. It's past experience. Which suck, because personal experience can't really be used as any kind of evidence. But I'm not trying to prove anything, so *shrug*.

Indeed, that sucks... but if it's good enough for you, then it's good enough for you.

As for claims about God's actions: Most of the "major" ones, Baha'is basically believe are myth. They are said to hold metaphorical truths, but are not literally true themselves. That doesn't mean we don't believe in miracles period, it just means we don't believe in MOST of them actually happening.

That sounds a bit like what the catholics nowadays go for, too...

There are a LOT of "divergent details." Starting with: Catholicism came out of Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came out of Islam.

And islam came out of what?

Catholics today believe that the practitioners of other religions -maybe- have a chance of going to heaven due to the "mystery of Christ's sacrifice," Baha'is believe the practitioners of other religions have just as much of a chance as Baha'is do to achieve a good afterlife.

Catholics are working towards that, it seems...
I remember a pope saying even atheists can get to heaven, now!!

Which leads to another: Baha'is don't believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe that these are metaphors for nearness to and distance from God.

There are a few christians around here who would say the same.

We also believe that you can continue to draw nearer to God after death (to Catholics that would basically be saying you can get to Heaven from Hell).

Ah... this is indeed different...

Also, while Catholics have a powerful priesthood, Baha'is have no clergy. For spiritual matters, we are responsible for ourselves. For administration, we hold elections for the Local, Regional, National, and International administrative bodies.

So, it's a theocracy?

Baha'is also don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus resurrected after being crucified.

yes, well... that a very christian-only thing, yes...

details, details!

If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for me. Exactly right, haha.

Not the Catholics I know. All the Catholics I know say that everything in the New Testament at least actually happened as recorded. There is some debate over the Old, however.

Islam came out of Christianity, but with many elements of Judaism.

It does indeed look like the Pope said atheists can go to Heaven too.

And yes, some Christians believe in a metaphorical Heaven/Hell. The difference is that this belief is a fundamental Baha'i belief, whereas the majority of Christians still believe in a literal Heaven/Hell.

Yep, different. Although, not unique. There are a few other belief systems out there that believe the same thing.

And no, not a theocracy. A theocracy is a state in which either the clergy rules or it is claimed God rules and the clergy STILL rule. Since Baha'is have no clergy, but rather elect individuals to serve as the administrators of the religious organization, we are not a theocracy. And we have no state. Of course, even if we did, we would still technically not be a theocracy since Baha'i laws wouldn't apply to non-Baha'is (it doesn't, even when there is a Baha'i majority. We believe very strongly in not forcing our own morality and religious laws on others.).

True, that is usually considered to only be a Christian thing. But, Baha'is believe in other things that are usually only considered to be Christian things. Example: We believe Jesus was a virgin birth, that He was the Messiah, and that His death on the cross really did happen (Muslims believe in everything up to this point, but don't believe Jesus died on the cross), and that His sacrifice did "save" the world (although we word it quite differently). We just don't believe He is part of a three person one God Trinity, or that He came back from the dead on the third day.

[pocaracas]

Gotcha... Do you guys have a holy book?

[zanOTK]

It's not really a "gut feeling" for me, nor is it indoctrination. It's past experience. Which suck, because personal experience can't really be used as any kind of evidence. But I'm not trying to prove anything, so *shrug*.

As for claims about God's actions: Most of the "major" ones, Baha'is basically believe are myth. They are said to hold metaphorical truths, but are not literally true themselves. That doesn't mean we don't believe in miracles period, it just means we don't believe in MOST of them actually happening.

There are a LOT of "divergent details." Starting with: Catholicism came out of Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came out of Islam. Catholics today believe that the practitioners of other religions -maybe- have a chance of going to heaven due to the "mystery of Christ's sacrifice," Baha'is believe the practitioners of other religions have just as much of a chance as Baha'is do to achieve a good afterlife. Which leads to another: Baha'is don't believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe that these are metaphors for nearness to and distance from God. We also believe that you can continue to draw nearer to God after death (to Catholics that would basically be saying you can get to Heaven from Hell). Also, while Catholics have a powerful priesthood, Baha'is have no clergy. For spiritual matters, we are responsible for ourselves. For administration, we hold elections for the Local, Regional, National, and International administrative bodies. Baha'is also don't believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus resurrected after being crucified.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of miracles do you believe happened? And then, does that fall into your 'gut feeling' area of belief, or do you have any evidence for those miracles?

We believe in the virgin birth of Christ, we believe that the Bab (forerunner of Baha'u'llah, founder of the Baha'i Faith) didn't die the first time the Persian government attempted to have Him executed by firing squad (the whole story on that is available online, if anyone is interested in reading it), and we believe that Baha'u'llah performed a few miracles Himself during His ministry. Thing is, I don't really know about most of the miracles we accept happened, at least not off the top of my head. Mostly because Baha'is don't really care about miracles. We don't believe they prove anything, except to those that witnessed them, so they're not really all that important to anyone else.

As for whether that's "gut feeling" or we have proof, neither. Or, I guess it could be labeled under the Founder's "gut feelings," if you like.

---

Gotcha... Do you guys have a holy book?

That's hard to answer. Not because we don't, but because there have been 15,000 works identified as being by Baha'u'llah alone (most of which have not yet been translated into English from the original Arabic and Persian). This, however, is including epistles. There are quite a few larger works written by Baha'u'llah, though, which include: The Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude, written before He declared His mission. It was written as a defense of the Bab from the standpoint of the Bible and the Quran), the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book, our book of Laws. Also contains some of our theology.), the Hidden Words (short book written by Baha'u'llah to communicate the "essence" of religion. One of my favorites), 7 Valleys and 4 Valleys (two completely different books which are actually not connected to one another in any way except that they are the two main "mystical" works by Baha'u'llah. If I remember right, they were both written in response to letters sent to Baha'u'llah. They are usually published in a single volume.), and decent sized collection of prayers. So yeah, we don't have one holy book, but we do have holy books.

[Rampant.A.I.]

Aye... but feeling good is not exactly guidance and those other things you said you pray for...
Although feeling good does help you to think better about any problem you may have and you are more likely to arrive at a positive outcome.
What bugs me is the attribution of that very internal chain of events to some external cause ... some external cause that doesn't seem to cause anything!

Theists believe that it does.

Haha, I'm reminded of something that is DEFINETLEY not religious: Futurama. Hilarious show. Ever seen it? In one episode, Bender (robot) meets God who is actually a giant computer/something else that smashed together (I can't remember what it was the computer crashed into...). Anyway, God/The Computer said that if you do things right, it won't look like you did anything at all. This was in response to Bender's own experience "playing god" to a bunch of tiny little aliens that basically colonized his body while he was floating through space. When he helped them, they became too dependent on him and wouldn't do anything themselves. When he didn't help them they destroyed themselves in a tiny (from Bender's perspective) nuclear war.

Of course, that doesn't prove anything. It's a damn cartoon. But it did make me think. It kind of makes sense, in a way. I mean, I question all the time why God doesn't intervene more. But, if he did, wouldn't we become too reliant on Him? According to my own religion's beliefs, we are here in this world to learn and to develop spiritual attributes. How exactly are we going to learn or develop anything if He steps in whenever we're in trouble? We're not. If that's the case, then we're just not going to know it whenever our lives have been interfered with. There probably won't be any immediate changes. But over time, things will happen. Maybe. Lol.

The simple fact of the matter is, according to my religious beliefs God expects people to get the hell out there and DO something. In fact, service to mankind is considered to be a form of worship in the Baha'i Faith.

Thus totally justifying the pastor who rapes his 12 year old every other night for four years, then blames her heroin addiction on a lack of faith in god, and throws her out of the house when she turns 18 after giving her a few more for good measure.

Because, God couldn't whisper "HEY, STOP FUCKING YOUR DAUGHTER" on one of the nights off, otherwise the pastor would teach "dependency"

[Minimalist]

Would it be better to help poor people? or to pray non-stop without any reason?

The question is not out of place.

[reality.Mathematician]

Would it be better to help poor people? or to pray non-stop without any reason?

The question is not out of place.

Can you get a job in the middle of a mountain ?
Can you get a job if you don't have where to sleep?

[zanOTK]

Theists believe that it does.

Haha, I'm reminded of something that is DEFINETLEY not religious: Futurama. Hilarious show. Ever seen it? In one episode, Bender (robot) meets God who is actually a giant computer/something else that smashed together (I can't remember what it was the computer crashed into...). Anyway, God/The Computer said that if you do things right, it won't look like you did anything at all. This was in response to Bender's own experience "playing god" to a bunch of tiny little aliens that basically colonized his body while he was floating through space. When he helped them, they became too dependent on him and wouldn't do anything themselves. When he didn't help them they destroyed themselves in a tiny (from Bender's perspective) nuclear war.

Of course, that doesn't prove anything. It's a damn cartoon. But it did make me think. It kind of makes sense, in a way. I mean, I question all the time why God doesn't intervene more. But, if he did, wouldn't we become too reliant on Him? According to my own religion's beliefs, we are here in this world to learn and to develop spiritual attributes. How exactly are we going to learn or develop anything if He steps in whenever we're in trouble? We're not. If that's the case, then we're just not going to know it whenever our lives have been interfered with. There probably won't be any immediate changes. But over time, things will happen. Maybe. Lol.

The simple fact of the matter is, according to my religious beliefs God expects people to get the hell out there and DO something. In fact, service to mankind is considered to be a form of worship in the Baha'i Faith.

Thus totally justifying the pastor who rapes his 12 year old every other night for four years, then blames her heroin addiction on a lack of faith in god, and throws her out of the house when she turns 18 after giving her a few more for good measure.

Because, God couldn't whisper "HEY, STOP FUCKING YOUR DAUGHTER" on one of the nights off, otherwise the pastor would teach "dependency"

Um. No. It doesn't. That not-so-hypothetical pastor is a sick bastard who needs to be arrested, imprisoned, and receive some serious psychological help.