(June 23, 2014 at 4:54 pm)whateverist Wrote: I can't seem to find where I used the word "ALL" so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you quote or link it?

I didn't mean you directly. I was originally getting your opinion on the use of the word. But thanks for clearing up my speculations on your answers.

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(June 23, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(June 23, 2014 at 3:57 pm)ronedee Wrote: Ok... in your opinion: are ALL Christians telling the truth when they say the only way to salvation is through Jesus?

No. Are all of them lying? Also no. People don't all fit into the same category, Ron. Some are sincere in their beliefs, some aren't. Some are outright lying, others aren't. I wouldn't dream of speculating about the ratio of that; I have no access to people's inner thoughts any more than you do. But I am realistic.

That cool with you?

Yeah. I'm seeing now, that the use of the word "ALL" is subjective.

But, that is a problem to me. Because I, as many many Christians don't fit the "bad" stereotypical profile that is the narrative here. And, that is my biggest gripe with you guys!

The intelligent ones here are willing to agree that most Christians are not like the few clowns, and news-makers.... yet I am measured by them continually!

I don't think that is fair, or honest. And that was my original point.

And to ask in a truthful way.... What fun is it for you, and the others to acknowledge the vast majority of "good" Christians? That wouldn't support your disdain for religion. Correct? Because clearly, its only a tiny percentage of BAD Christians you are pointing to.

So, you are not "ALL" being 100% honest.

Am I right? And if not, why am I wrong?

(June 23, 2014 at 10:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: What fun is it for you, and the others to acknowledge the vast majority of "good" Christians? That wouldn't support your disdain for religion. Correct? Because clearly, its only a tiny percentage of BAD Christians you are pointing to.

So, you are not "ALL" being 100% honest.

Am I right? And if not, why am I wrong?

And what of you, Ron? Are you being 100% honest with yourself? Don't you remember the many threads you've started on these forums which have denigrated atheists? You've questioned how we can possibly tell right from wrong. You've insinuated that we are depraved in any number of ways. And what was that if not your own disdain for atheists?

(June 23, 2014 at 10:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: But, that is a problem to me. Because I, as many many Christians don't fit the "bad" stereotypical profile that is the narrative here. And, that is my biggest gripe with you guys!

Let me put it this way: when it comes to one's innate goodness or badness, christianity is irrelevant. The good people will be good regardless of their christian beliefs, and ditto for the bad ones. Now, those bad people that are convinced to be good by christianity? Those guys aren't good, they're just afraid. I don't find that impressive. Meanwhile, how many otherwise good people are convinced to think just awful thoughts about those who don't agree with them, are enjoined to restrict the rights of others, are dragged down into a hateful spiral because of this looming magic dread hanging above them?

And those are just the more pointed examples. I'm more worried about the constant downward pressure religion exerts, where evidence as a concept is devalued and faith is extolled as a virtue. Meaningless lines get drawn between people based on beliefs... it's silly.

Quote:The intelligent ones here are willing to agree that most Christians are not like the few clowns, and news-makers.... yet I am measured by them continually!

I don't think that is fair, or honest. And that was my original point.

Well, that's easy to respond to: based on your arguments and general demeanor, you're compared to the clowns because you act like them. There are plenty of christians that I'm happy to know personally and have a great deal of respect for, but when you assert that atheists can't have morality- as I recall you doing in the past- then I can't honestly place you in that group.

Quote:And to ask in a truthful way.... What fun is it for you, and the others to acknowledge the vast majority of "good" Christians? That wouldn't support your disdain for religion. Correct? Because clearly, its only a tiny percentage of BAD Christians you are pointing to.

So, you are not "ALL" being 100% honest.

Considering how happy you are to denigrate atheists while minimizing or ignoring those christians that do bad, you're hardly working to a higher standard on that front, are you? Why not lead by example, rather than sinking to so many of the worst stereotypes?

Quote:Am I right? And if not, why am I wrong?

Uh, you do realize that you're on an atheist forum, right? Our opposition to religion naturally entails a certain focus on areas of concern for us, no? But it'd be silly to judge the entirety of our attitude based upon the conversations we have in a setting based around a specific topic, wouldn't it? It'd be like if I extrapolated the entirety of your behavior, everywhere, all day, based solely on what you do in church.

(June 23, 2014 at 4:25 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(June 23, 2014 at 4:21 pm)Tonus Wrote: If you are saying that believing something that isn't true makes you a liar, then Christians believe that there are around 5 billion liars, and non-Christians think that there are 2 billion liars.

No. There are people who found the Lord.... and those that have not yet.

Lying has nothing to do with it.

What does "found the Lord" mean exactly?

I know some who did "find the Lord" at one point but eventually "wisened up" and realized it was just intense emotional feelings that made them think that.

(June 24, 2014 at 1:43 am)whateverist Wrote: And what of you, Ron? Are you being 100% honest with yourself? Don't you remember the many threads you've started on these forums which have denigrated atheists? You've questioned how we can possibly tell right from wrong. You've insinuated that we are depraved in any number of ways. And what was that if not your own disdain for atheists?

So, let me get this straight.... It's ok for you guys to "denigrate" Christians and me in particular?

But, I have a perscution complex if I complain. And/or I'm an Atheist hater if I lash back?

This why I love this place. The only people right here are atheists. No matter the argument! And just because you say so! I guess you/others best defense is a good offense?

Here's a bit of fact: There are no clean skirts here! We've all wallowed in the muck & mud. So take off the holier than thou attitude.

And don't change the subject; when you don't have answers, or don't want to admit you are wrong!

(June 24, 2014 at 5:23 am)Esquilax Wrote: Uh, you do realize that you're on an atheist forum, right? Our opposition to religion naturally entails a certain focus on areas of concern for us, no? But it'd be silly to judge the entirety of our attitude based upon the conversations we have in a setting based around a specific topic, wouldn't it? It'd be like if I extrapolated the entirety of your behavior, everywhere, all day, based solely on what you do in church.

You know, I am also a (somewhat lapsed) member of a certain forum dedicated to the building of full-size Dalek props - yes, such things do exist. The amount of time and effort the posters there spend discussing various aspects of the props and construction techniques is amazing. In fact they never seem to talk about anything else. I have no idea why...

(June 24, 2014 at 12:47 pm)ronedee Wrote: And don't change the subject; when you don't have answers, or don't want to admit you are wrong!

Good advice, in a thread that started out on the subject of religious motivations to lie for the cause and which is now shunted onto who best plays the martyr card.

(June 24, 2014 at 12:47 pm)ronedee Wrote: So, let me get this straight.... It's ok for you guys to "denigrate" Christians and me in particular?

But, I have a perscution complex if I complain. And/or I'm an Atheist hater if I lash back?

That's funny, I thought this thread was made to denigrate liars for christianity, a specific subset of your religion that you should be insulting too, not your religion as a whole. That reaction is a little telling, actually, that you'd look at a thread that started with a story about a man deliberately faking a miracle (where's your condemnation for him, incidentally?) and decide that, since we're talking about specific examples of christian liars conning people for their faith, we must be talking about all christians!

Is the connection between "lying" and "christianity" so strong in your mind? Or is it, which I think is more likely, that you aren't actually reading the posts and are leaping to the defense of something you haven't really bothered to comprehend? Did you just see "christian" and "lie" in the thread title and jump to a conclusion?

The ronedee doth protest too much, methinks.

(June 24, 2014 at 12:47 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 1:43 am)whateverist Wrote: And what of you, Ron? Are you being 100% honest with yourself? Don't you remember the many threads you've started on these forums which have denigrated atheists? You've questioned how we can possibly tell right from wrong. You've insinuated that we are depraved in any number of ways. And what was that if not your own disdain for atheists?

So, let me get this straight.... It's ok for you guys to "denigrate" Christians and me in particular?

But, I have a perscution complex if I complain. And/or I'm an Atheist hater if I lash back?

This why I love this place. The only people right here are atheists. No matter the argument! And just because you say so! I guess you/others best defense is a good offense?

Here's a bit of fact: There are no clean skirts here! We've all wallowed in the muck & mud. So take off the holier than thou attitude.

And don't change the subject; when you don't have answers, or don't want to admit you are wrong!